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Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

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Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#191

Post by lillecarl »

ShredKazoo wrote: post #190
lillecarl wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's related to your question of "Is there an important sense in which Sweden has more abundant resources than, say, the US?". The answer is yes, in some cases. Because wealth is distributed so that everyone can afford things like education, healthcare, daycare. If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps that's different in an important sense from if 0 people have a superyacht and every…

>If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps In this hypothetical, the median income will be very low. I'm not trying to be combative, I just try to correct misconceptions when I see them. It seems like some people have the misconception that the US is a place of a few superyachts and mostly foodstamps. That's not really the case.

Indeed, very over-exaggerated example. The point about distribution still stands. Sweden just uses taxes to do it rather than equal income.

Fun fact, there's no legal minimum wage in Sweden, it's handled by unions or individuals, not the government.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#192

Post by ShredKazoo »

lillecarl wrote: post #191
ShredKazoo wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps In this hypothetical, the median income will be very low. I'm not trying to be combative, I just try to correct misconceptions when I see them. It seems like some people have the misconception that the US is a place of a few superyachts and mostly foodstamps. That's not really the case.

Indeed, very over-exaggerated example. The point about distribution still stands. Sweden just uses taxes to do it rather than equal income. Fun fact, there's no legal minimum wage in Sweden, it's handled by unions or individuals, not the government.

>Fun fact, there's no legal minimum wage in Sweden

Interesting!

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#193

Post by chongli »

jstummbillig wrote: post #87
chongli wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s pretty clear to me. I am much happier to be quietly doing research, writing code, testing, writing documentation, fixing bugs, writing emails, etc. Now stick me in a meeting and I soon become very unhappy. Why? Because I’m really not interested in listening to people complain about stuff unrelated to my tasks or giving updates about random stuff or whatever. Now I don’t mind socializing with people at wo…

Here I would find some support for the parents point: There is a lot of room for interpretation. To me, writing an email can be the most intense "working with people" thing, more so than any amount of small talk or doing manual labor with people. The amount of stress that goes into a hard to write email – mostly because it will also be a hard to read email and then also the anticipation of some sort of unpleasant rea…

See, I find writing an email to be a totally straightforward, impersonal task. Like writing code, but in English rather than a programming language. Just the facts, no sugar-coating or other nonsense!

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#194

Post by lillecarl »

null_object wrote: post #186
lillecarl wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's related to your question of "Is there an important sense in which Sweden has more abundant resources than, say, the US?". The answer is yes, in some cases. Because wealth is distributed so that everyone can afford things like education, healthcare, daycare. If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps that's different in an important sense from if 0 people have a superyacht and every…

> Because wealth is distributed so that everyone can afford things like education, healthcare, daycare. If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps that's different in an important sense from if 0 people have a superyacht and everyone gets access to education and food. From your username I’m going to assume you can read Swedish, in which case I’ll recommend Andreas Cervanka’s latest book on the redis…

Thanks for the tip, purchased!

Even before reading, yes it's indeed changed over the years, though I'm relatively young so I haven't experienced the shift myself.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#195

Post by mpweiher »

ehnto wrote: post #189
mpweiher wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if we assume everyone is equal then there shouldn't be Incorrect assumption. Everyone is obviously not equal. For example: 2% of people like tech enough to work there, 98% do not. These two groups are obviously not equal. > but one group is systemically discouraged from taking on tech even if they want to What evidence do you have for this "systematic discouragement"? Of the 98% of people who do not go into tech? H…

>> if we assume everyone is equal then there shouldn't be > Incorrect assumption. Everyone is obviously not equal. I was quoting you. There are some practical differences obviously, but I don't believe any of them should mean women are less inclined to enjoy technical jobs. > What evidence do you have for this "systematic discouragement"? Of the 98% of people who do not go into tech? How so? Speak to women who are in…

> I was quoting you.

No you were not. I did not write "everyone is equal" anywhere in the post you responded to. In fact, I neither wrote 'everyone' nor 'equal'.

> Speak to women who are in tech, ask them what their experience was like.

Anecdote ≠ data and is not evidence for anything "systematic".

> I haven't got any studies for you I'm afraid

Because there aren't any that show this, because it's not an actual thing.

> we're debating in experiences

I am debating facts, you are debating what appear to be anecdotal experiences and subjective evaluations of those experiences from which you then extrapolate mightily.

If I told you what my experience has been in tech, you probably wouldn't believe me. And if I were to present my personal experience as that of a woman, you would think it proof for the systematic discrimination against women in tech. Except that it isn't, of course, because it all happened to a man.

Anyway, people have studied this empirically, and this is what they found:

"Our early analysis suggests that men and women actually appear to leave engineering at roughly the same rate and endorse the same reasons for leaving."

https://sites.uwm.edu/nsfpower/gears/

And of course this is why "just ask " is not a valid method for ascertaining discriminatory practice. You also have to ask other groups to see if the practices differ based on what group you belong to.

In tech, they don't. In fact, women in tech generally report slightly better treatment than men do (different survey). Tech is a shit show for everyone.

A very well-compensated shit-show, mind you.

(And since men are und greater pressure to earn, they are probably also more likely to tolerate a shit show if the pay is good).

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#196

Post by lillecarl »

ShredKazoo wrote: post #190
lillecarl wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's related to your question of "Is there an important sense in which Sweden has more abundant resources than, say, the US?". The answer is yes, in some cases. Because wealth is distributed so that everyone can afford things like education, healthcare, daycare. If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps that's different in an important sense from if 0 people have a superyacht and every…

>If 1 out of a 100 has a superyacht and 99 live on foodstamps In this hypothetical, the median income will be very low. I'm not trying to be combative, I just try to correct misconceptions when I see them. It seems like some people have the misconception that the US is a place of a few superyachts and mostly foodstamps. That's not really the case.

> It seems like some people have the misconception that the US is a place of a few superyachts and mostly foodstamps. That's not really the case.

It's what i see on the news (not superyachts that much), on the "internet" (Reddit).

I understand reality is different, and that it's also different across states. But the stereotypes come from somewhere/something.

I'm sad that we don't have better workplace equality. We should take after NA in regulating resumes. We're allowed photos, names, gender, well anything we want to put on our resume we can. This could/does cause bias way too early in the selection process for jobs.

It doesn't explain why women, who on average perform better in school choose to pursue a career in Healthcare, which is "the worst" industry to work in over here. When there are so many other industries where they could make a great living with less stress, better schedules and more cash on hand.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#197

Post by snehk »

unknownsky wrote: post #132
yung_steezy wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree that it can all be explained by societal conditioning. They tried to sample every society they could in this study to see if societal factors could explain the preference but could not see a societal effect. While you might be able to claim that every society around the world is fundamentally sexist to explain the difference in preferences, I think in that case you would have to be able to explain…

If cultures universally share a characteristic, that does not prove that the characteristic is a hard-wired drive. That thinking has been used to make several arguments. Cultures all around the world have made pyramids, so pyramids must have a deep spiritual meaning that all humans are tuned into. Or all these cultures were working with heavy objects and gravity and they all independently discovered that a pyramid is…

You don't make any argument here? Your next line could have been:

Cultures all around the world treat women and men differently so what a woman and a man do must be caused by society. Or all those things are mostly hard wired and people make decisions because of this.

Just because people's observations for things have been wrong doesn't mean that all explanations are wrong. That's a bit ridiculous.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#198

Post by Flenser »

chongli wrote: post #48
catears wrote: post #37

The definition of working with people vs. working with things doesn't seem obvious to me. As a software engineer I am working a lot with my computer. Therefore I must be working with things! But... I am just as much working with my soft skills. Scrum retros, talking to stakeholders, discussions on design with fellow engineers, testing with end-users. Some days I don't spend even a minute working with "things". I don'…

I think it’s pretty clear to me. I am much happier to be quietly doing research, writing code, testing, writing documentation, fixing bugs, writing emails, etc. Now stick me in a meeting and I soon become very unhappy. Why? Because I’m really not interested in listening to people complain about stuff unrelated to my tasks or giving updates about random stuff or whatever. Now I don’t mind socializing with people at wo…

It depends on the quality of the meetings. My last job I hated them for all the reasons you said. My current job they are enjoyable and productive. That's because the agenda is a "living" document that anyone can edit during the week, and the meetings stop when we've nothing left to discuss or need to get back to work

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#199

Post by catears »

kqr wrote: post #45
catears wrote: post #37

The definition of working with people vs. working with things doesn't seem obvious to me. As a software engineer I am working a lot with my computer. Therefore I must be working with things! But... I am just as much working with my soft skills. Scrum retros, talking to stakeholders, discussions on design with fellow engineers, testing with end-users. Some days I don't spend even a minute working with "things". I don'…

A bricklayer works with things. Daycare staff work with people. These are very clear-cut. Then there are a lot of points along that continuum -- nurses and HR reps work mostly with people. Economists a little of both. Software engineers and carpenters mostly with things. We may not agree on a complete ordering but we will get reasonably close to each other, I suppose.

Yeah, I guess my point is that the categorization "prefer working with people" vs "prefer working with things" seems very weird. If I was a solo IT-entrepeneur I would likely work a lot with both! It does not even seem to be a scale between working more with things or more with people if you ask me.

And if there is so much grey zone that is open to interpretation, wouldn't that mean the study is rather measuring ones own perception of what they are working with?

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#200

Post by heavenlyblue »

sshine wrote: post #179
null_object wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying that Sweden is a sexist society? Sweden is such an interesting paradox: womens’ rights to work in different fields and (mostly) on an equal footing are protected in law, and (in my experience) in practice. And yet in many ways I find it generally the most gender-divided country I’ve experienced, and I’ve even lived in countries that most people would consider very sexist, like the UK and Spain. There…

> it always gladdens my heart to see a female roadworker Sure, but a female coalminer?

Please tell me how many men willingly (having had other choice) would go doing road works :)

Or working at a coal mine on thaf matter.

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