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Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

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Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#81
The article speaks in very broad terms but there are precise preferential differences by sex.

More than just working with things males tend to prefer working with tools more than building new things. Yes there are many males that are creative and only prefer creating original works, but not most. When it comes to working with things females, unlike males, tend to prefer the ideas of things, theory, more than the implementation or practical application, which may speak to planning.

There was a recently published study that females across the world score higher in cognitive (learned) empathy than males. The same study found no distinction by sex in innate (natural) empathy.

None of this should come as a surprise. For decades we have known that females score higher in agreeability and males score higher in assertiveness. As such females will tend to position themselves into interests of lower social friction and higher direct engagement than males. Males will tend to position their interests into areas of greater critical reasoning at sacrifice to social engagement than will females. Yet despite that most males remain fully unwilling to distance their interests from those that are perceived as higher value by their group dynamics.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#82
I hope people don't jump to the conclusion that they like what they like because of their gender. It could be equally attributed to what they're working with. As in, you like what you know. I've never worked in a people heavy environment, so I couldn't say I like working in one.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#83

Does this mean James Damore was right? Or is there something wrong with this research?

Yonatan Zunger, a principle eng at Google and twitter, said how wrong Damore was and that:

"a good number of the people you [Damore] might have to work with may simply punch you in the face"

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man...

I have no idea why this guy Yonatan is still allowed to work anywhere.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#84

Does this mean James Damore was right? Or is there something wrong with this research?

I don't think anything he ever said was factually wrong? The main complete was by stating it he was creating a hostile work environment.

Ironically, it was the feminists who created the hostile work environment when they lied about the cause of the sex distribution among tech workers - falsely accusing them of sexism.

They then further created a hostile work environment when Damore explained why their victim narrative was false and ran him out of the company for it.

For these reasons I would never dream of joining Google any more.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#85

Still the problem here is we don't _really_ know whether this is genetic or shaped by our upbringing even when it comes to the most egalitarian societies. I'd like to see the same study done on the little left hunter-gatherers bands.

Guess what: we're a sexually dimorphic species.

The view that every group of people you care to select is "equal" (whatever that means) is manifestly false.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#86
post #31

Still the problem here is we don't _really_ know whether this is genetic or shaped by our upbringing even when it comes to the most egalitarian societies. I'd like to see the same study done on the little left hunter-gatherers bands.

Not sure you'd learn the most from the hunter-gatherers, who have the narrowest leeway in their survival and must have everyone doing exactly what they're best suited at. A fat rich society with more money than they can spend, like Norway or Qatar or Brunei, is likely more instructive.

A hunter gatherer society would be the exact opposite of highly specialised ("doing what you're best at").

It has little margin for loss of function, so a poor performer is better and more likely to survive then losing the performance of the function entirely.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#87
post #48
post #37

The definition of working with people vs. working with things doesn't seem obvious to me. As a software engineer I am working a lot with my computer. Therefore I must be working with things! But... I am just as much working with my soft skills. Scrum retros, talking to stakeholders, discussions on design with fellow engineers, testing with end-users. Some days I don't spend even a minute working with "things". I don'…

I think it’s pretty clear to me. I am much happier to be quietly doing research, writing code, testing, writing documentation, fixing bugs, writing emails, etc. Now stick me in a meeting and I soon become very unhappy. Why? Because I’m really not interested in listening to people complain about stuff unrelated to my tasks or giving updates about random stuff or whatever. Now I don’t mind socializing with people at wo…

Here I would find some support for the parents point: There is a lot of room for interpretation.

To me, writing an email can be the most intense "working with people" thing, more so than any amount of small talk or doing manual labor with people. The amount of stress that goes into a hard to write email – mostly because it will also be a hard to read email and then also the anticipation of some sort of unpleasant reaction – and the amount of time you have to wallow in that stress, rivals few other social interactions in its intensity.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#88
> gender differences appear to be greater in societies with greater gender equality and in which people have greater economic resources

I don't think this is a paradox at all. Discouraging 50% of the workforce talent pool is a wasteful luxury that only countries with abundant resources can afford.

I experienced this first hand when I moved to Sweden. I had never been made to feel like a freak for being a programmer until I moved to Sweden. I had never experienced being constantly excluded, discouraged and pushed away from technical activities in order to "rescue" me from things I'm being told me I'm not interested in.

I have a legal right to parental leave and I can get an IUD for free, so it's considered a paradox that there are so few female programmers in such an equal country. I don't see how there is a paradox.

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do know that gender differences in a variety of psychological traits are more pronounced in more egalitarian societies. See e.g. https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-women-e...

The study in the topic seems to contradict this, although the summary is a bit confusing: "Considering gender inequality, the authors report that “in countries of higher gender inequality, women’s stronger preference for working with people versus things compared to men was smaller.” However, this effect disappeared when cultural dimensions were taken into account. "Instead, it was those countries with greater uncert…

So do egalitarian countries have high uncertainty avoidance?

Re: Women like working with people, men like working with things, all over the world

#90
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So .. you've had no actual experience of living with hunter gathers then? This is not an argument. > The women do a lot of work digging ants [1], digging lizards, trawling through sands for cockles [2] (and leaving massive midden piles in their wake over centuries), and retire to a life of painting and laughing at the quaint notions of the clueless. Great. > Many such cultures share childcare across a wide network…

Those are just two points out of a long list of actions required in a society. I don't think it really adds that much weight to the argument, even though it is true. To go back to your other comment: > Why is that a problem, and if it was due to upbringing then why that would be a problem? It would be a problem for upbringing as that is something adults have agency over. It's a bias that may not need to exist. A grea…

> It would be a problem for upbringing as that is something adults have agency over. It's a bias that may not need to exist.

There's no evidence that adults are creating this bias. They are not.

On average women find tech work grindingly boring.

Why is it a problem? It isn't. Just let people do what they want with their lives.

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