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How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

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Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#91

Post by 082349872349872 »

pvg wrote: post #90
082349872349872 wrote: post #66

There is a line in "Don't Be Fools, America" that I had wondered at: Екатерина, ты была не права. "Catherine, you were wrong" Apparently George had written Catherine for troops to send to the colonies, and at first she (or her rep) had agreed (what uppity subjects!) but then none were never sent. So the colonists got support (of omission in this case, not commission) even from an absolutist monarch because they were…

I think this is a little fanciful, the song is entirely about Alaska which was sold to the US 71 years after Catherine died. The more reasonable explanation is that the line in the song is just wrong for poetic license or other reasons.

> which was sold to the US 71 years after Catherine died.

which is exactly why I believe it was due to her lack of support during the revolution. Why invent poetic reasons when we already have historical?

https://usrussiarelations.org/2/timeline/first-contact/7

https://usrussiarelations.org/2/timeline/first-contact/8

(TIL there was even support of commission; note that Catherine explicitly cites France as part of her rationale)

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#92

Post by pvg »

082349872349872 wrote: post #91
pvg wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a little fanciful, the song is entirely about Alaska which was sold to the US 71 years after Catherine died. The more reasonable explanation is that the line in the song is just wrong for poetic license or other reasons.

> which was sold to the US 71 years after Catherine died. which is exactly why I believe it was due to her lack of support during the revolution. Why invent poetic reasons when we already have historical? https://usrussiarelations.org/2/timeline/first-contact/7 https://usrussiarelations.org/2/timeline/first-contact/8 (TIL there was even support of commission; note that Catherine explicitly cites France as part of her…

Why invent poetic reasons when we already have historical?

Because nothing in the text suggests or in any way alludes to these supposed historical reasons? That seems a much bigger leap and invention than a line in a song simply being not all that historically accurate.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#93

Post by JetSetWilly »

ngc248 wrote: post #70
ericmay wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure lack of French support would have made a difference with how we understand America today assuming the Americans had still won, but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects.

>>> but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects. Hard disagree here, I am from a former british colony, where the laws etc are still inspired by the british. The American constitution and political and legal system with its checks and balances is outright better than the british system. Of course its not perfect, but its still miles better. So its good that the rebels…

Globally, countries with presidential systems are much more likely to devolve into dictatorships than those with british-inspired parliamentary systems.

There's pros and cons to each system of course. The American "checks and balances" results in complete inability to act a lot of the time. See the frequent budget shutdowns, or compare and contrast the ability to legislate for issues like "maniacs are shooting up our schools".

The downside of course is that the great "freedom of action" of a british government can result in self harming or ill considered policies being rail roaded through. See something like brexit: it is doubtful that many countries with "checks and balances" would be able to muster the political will and broad agreement to do it in the first place. But a british government can just go YOLO.

I think a parliamentary system is better despite this because it puts the establishment in control. To become PM, you have to climb to the top of a party first (which requires many years of dedication). Some war hero, billionaire, or other radical can't just waltz into the position from nowhere. And then a PM is at all times beholden to the support of their party, which can be removed at any time if they turn out to be an idiot (see truss - nobody had to put up with her for 4 years).

The danger in britain is the move to more "democracy" in choosing PMs. If it were left to the establishment (ie MPs) things are more boring. But when it is "democratised" to party members that's when the crazies come in - the corbyns and trusses. This is an unfortunate decline of elite control in Britain which hopefully will be rolled back now that everyone has seen the unintended consequences.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#94

Post by skywal_l »

frereubu wrote: post #2

This is a great BBC podcast about the subject (and how the US abandoned France in return): https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000v99n

They did not abandon France, they followed their national (and perhaps the individuals in power)'s interests by reconciling with the UK.

As Charles de Gaulle answered to a question regarding franco-american friendship: "people have friends, nations have interests".

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#95

Post by WeylandYutani »

InTheArena wrote: post #8
mncharity wrote: post #6

> The stunning success at Saratoga gave Franklin what he had been pleading for — explicit French support in the war. Or, in contrast to a story of straightforward military system-y tipping point, perhaps ... > The Battle of Saratoga was [...] not pivotal in convincing France that the rebels could defeat Britain. [...] French support depended far more upon court intrigue [1] > “sometimes history happens by accident,”…

As someone who studied American history, this point of view always irks me a little bit. The reality of it is that all of the assumptions that America would have lost without French support is trying to prove a counterfactual. There are a lot of reasons to think that it would not have been so. Every southern campaign that the British had tried to pull off was a disaster. The cost to the British crown of maintaining a…

The Revolutionary war reminds me a lot of modern insurgencies in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It wasn't won on the battlefield it was won in secret backroom deals that made sure the supplies and money kept flowing in.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#96

Post by WeylandYutani »

odd_perfect_num wrote: post #61
Jensson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Brittish hammered down basically every other rebellion, without French intervention they would likely have ramped up further. They barely sent any troops to America and gave up really quickly, for example in the Second Boer War they sent 5 times as many soldiers, if they had sent that many to America which they probably would have without French intervention then America would have lost completely, no doubt.

They landed 32,000 men at New York, the largest British fleet ever assembled up to that point. The idea that they were playing on easy mode is a delusion.

Considering what happened in 1815 I think the British just didn't care all that much. When the US made claims on Canada that changed.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#97

Post by 082349872349872 »

pvg wrote: post #92
082349872349872 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which was sold to the US 71 years after Catherine died. which is exactly why I believe it was due to her lack of support during the revolution. Why invent poetic reasons when we already have historical? https://usrussiarelations.org/2/timeline/first-contact/7 https://usrussiarelations.org/2/timeline/first-contact/8 (TIL there was even support of commission; note that Catherine explicitly cites France as part of her…

Why invent poetic reasons when we already have historical? Because nothing in the text suggests or in any way alludes to these supposed historical reasons? That seems a much bigger leap and invention than a line in a song simply being not all that historically accurate.

Fair enough. Шаганов is still alive (and posted to VK yesterday) so I'll ask.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#98

Post by pvg »

082349872349872 wrote: post #97
pvg wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why invent poetic reasons when we already have historical? Because nothing in the text suggests or in any way alludes to these supposed historical reasons? That seems a much bigger leap and invention than a line in a song simply being not all that historically accurate.

Fair enough. Шаганов is still alive (and posted to VK yesterday) so I'll ask.

Hah, look forward to the answer if one comes up!

  Я популярно объясняю для невежд
  Я к болгарам уезжаю, в Будапешт!
  Если темы там возникнут — сразу снять
  Бить не нужно. А не вникнут — разъяснять

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#99

Post by 082349872349872 »

pvg wrote: post #98
082349872349872 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. Шаганов is still alive (and posted to VK yesterday) so I'll ask.

Hah, look forward to the answer if one comes up! Я популярно объясняю для невежд Я к болгарам уезжаю, в Будапешт! Если темы там возникнут — сразу снять Бить не нужно. А не вникнут — разъяснять

re VV, cf https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23940405

(songwriter, athlete, but not Komsomolets)

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#100

Post by Konohamaru »

dieselgate wrote: post #89
Konohamaru wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Please consider a review of the HN comment guidelines, not sure this adds to the discussion and is basically name calling and insinuating a bot https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It wasn't intended to be name-calling. It really did have the same style of something like ChatGPT.
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