Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

battlefields.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 114 posts

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#61

Post by odd_perfect_num »

Jensson wrote: post #10
mncharity wrote: post #6

> The stunning success at Saratoga gave Franklin what he had been pleading for — explicit French support in the war. Or, in contrast to a story of straightforward military system-y tipping point, perhaps ... > The Battle of Saratoga was [...] not pivotal in convincing France that the rebels could defeat Britain. [...] French support depended far more upon court intrigue [1] > “sometimes history happens by accident,”…

The Brittish hammered down basically every other rebellion, without French intervention they would likely have ramped up further. They barely sent any troops to America and gave up really quickly, for example in the Second Boer War they sent 5 times as many soldiers, if they had sent that many to America which they probably would have without French intervention then America would have lost completely, no doubt.

They landed 32,000 men at New York, the largest British fleet ever assembled up to that point. The idea that they were playing on easy mode is a delusion.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#62

Post by odd_perfect_num »

Does anyone remember where the longest siege ever in history was waged?

Hint: It was in the American Revolution.

Second hint: Not Yorktown or Boston.

Answer: Correct! The siege of Gibraltar. Undertaken by France and Spain, the (largely inept) siege lasted more than 3.5 years and delayed the end of the war long past Yorktown.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#63

Post by defrost »

odd_perfect_num wrote: post #62

Does anyone remember where the longest siege ever in history was waged? Hint: It was in the American Revolution. Second hint: Not Yorktown or Boston. Answer: Correct! The siege of Gibraltar. Undertaken by France and Spain, the (largely inept) siege lasted more than 3.5 years and delayed the end of the war long past Yorktown.

Only three and half years?

That doesn't even make the top three IIRC.

The Siege of Ceuta, and the Siege of Candia were both 20+ years.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#64

Post by BuyMyBitcoins »

jacquesm wrote: post #13
jschveibinz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“a surprisingly large number” of my compatriots can’t even locate themselves on a map, let alone understand France’s contribution to the war of independence or any connection thereof to current politics. You are charging at windmills, I’m afraid.

I have no illusion at being able to make a difference on this. But it is so irritating when Congress people go on about 'freedom fries' and 'French cowardice', 'surrender monkeys' etc. And I'm not even French...

On the bright side that happened during a limited window in time in the early to mid 2000’s. It certainly hasn’t persisted and plenty of people mocked it back in the day as well.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#65

Post by random314 »

defrost wrote: post #63
odd_perfect_num wrote: post #62

Does anyone remember where the longest siege ever in history was waged? Hint: It was in the American Revolution. Second hint: Not Yorktown or Boston. Answer: Correct! The siege of Gibraltar. Undertaken by France and Spain, the (largely inept) siege lasted more than 3.5 years and delayed the end of the war long past Yorktown.

Only three and half years? That doesn't even make the top three IIRC. The Siege of Ceuta, and the Siege of Candia were both 20+ years.

I wonder if the ongoing siege of Gaza counts? Counting 15 years. Or does it not count without any active fight back OR because Gaza is a part of Israel and thus Israel has laid a siege on itself?

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#66

Post by 082349872349872 »

There is a line in "Don't Be Fools, America" that I had wondered at:

    Екатерина, ты была не права.
    "Catherine, you were wrong"
Apparently George had written Catherine for troops to send to the colonies, and at first she (or her rep) had agreed (what uppity subjects!) but then none were never sent.

So the colonists got support (of omission in this case, not commission) even from an absolutist monarch because they were underdogs, who stood a chance at blackening John Bull's eye?

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#67

Post by whearyou »

random314 wrote: post #65
defrost wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only three and half years? That doesn't even make the top three IIRC. The Siege of Ceuta, and the Siege of Candia were both 20+ years.

I wonder if the ongoing siege of Gaza counts? Counting 15 years. Or does it not count without any active fight back OR because Gaza is a part of Israel and thus Israel has laid a siege on itself?

Not a siege in any sense. What sieges not only allow the besieged to conduct import/export but actively pay for the besieged’s supplies?

Leave the ideology somewhere else

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#68

Post by 082349872349872 »

Larrikin wrote: post #40
jongjong wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US would not have been anywhere near as successful financially and its population size would probably only have been a fraction of what it is today.

Would slavery have ended sooner or later if the British had won?

Sooner, and perhaps more importantly, without all the violence.

cf https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33931615

(incidentally, I find the timing of the Monroe Doctrine slightly suspicious, coming as it does from a slave-holding President a few years after the Vienna Convention includes an agreement [as moral imperative] to abolish the slave trade)

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#69

Post by pvg »

jacquesm wrote: post #44
pvg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All sorts of sentiments are around in all sorts of threads. What you can't do is write sweeping generalizations about entire massive categories of people. It's a totally basic rule of any vaguely sane forum beside being simply common decency.

Ok, so we'll do away with the sweeping generalizations and I'll try to rephrase it in a way that it is factually correct without stepping over those boundaries, let me know if it gets a pass or not: In France and amongst French people the prevailing sentiment is that an everlasting debt is owed to the United States and other allied forces that helped liberate France from the Germans at the conclusion of World War II.…

It wouldn't have been flagged to pieces, that's for sure!

As to factually correct, I dunno, I think you're falling for the same kind of stereotype that some Americans ascribe to the French. France's critical contribution to the American War of Independence is taught in schools. Sometimes in schools named after Lafayette, or in counties, towns, near streets or squares named after him. As is the fact that one of America's great symbols, the Statue of Liberty is a gift from France, etc, etc.

This all reminds me of a bit from David Sedaris's humor/satirical book Me Talk Pretty One Day which I'm going to paste in here so we can wrap this up on a lighter note:

I chickened out, realizing that I was afraid of France. My fear had nothing to do with the actual French people. I didn’t know any actual French people. What scared me was the idea of French people I’d gotten from movies and situation comedies. When someone makes a spectacular ass of himself, it’s always in a French restaurant, never a Japanese or Italian one. The French are the people who slap one another with gloves and wear scarves to cover their engorged hickies. My understanding was that, no matter how hard we tried, the French would never like us, and that’s confusing to an American raised to believe that the citizens of Europe should be grateful for all the wonderful things we’ve done. Things like movies that stereotype the people of France as boors and petty snobs, and little remarks such as “We saved your ass in World War II.” Every day we’re told that we live in the greatest country on earth. “And it’s always stated as an undeniable fact: Leos were born between July 23 and August 22, fitted queen-size sheets measure sixty by eighty inches, and America is the greatest country on earth. Having grown up with this in our ears, it’s startling to realize that other countries have nationalistic slogans of their own, none of which are “We’re number two!”

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#70

Post by ngc248 »

ericmay wrote: post #26
Waterluvian wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may, I feel a bit irked that we often see these outcomes as binary. Wouldn’t the absence of French involvement be likely to have caused a considerable change in social, political, and economic landscape, regardless of who ultimately “won”? I’ve been thinking about how different paces to the Ukraine war’s culmination (eg. we increase support by 10x tomorrow) could have significant impacts on future attitudes and…

I’m not sure lack of French support would have made a difference with how we understand America today assuming the Americans had still won, but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects.

>>> but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects.

Hard disagree here, I am from a former british colony, where the laws etc are still inspired by the british. The American constitution and political and legal system with its checks and balances is outright better than the british system. Of course its not perfect, but its still miles better. So its good that the rebels won and the british lost.

Post reply on HN