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How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

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Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#41

Post by [deleted] »

InTheArena wrote: post #8
mncharity wrote: post #6

> The stunning success at Saratoga gave Franklin what he had been pleading for — explicit French support in the war. Or, in contrast to a story of straightforward military system-y tipping point, perhaps ... > The Battle of Saratoga was [...] not pivotal in convincing France that the rebels could defeat Britain. [...] French support depended far more upon court intrigue [1] > “sometimes history happens by accident,”…

As someone who studied American history, this point of view always irks me a little bit. The reality of it is that all of the assumptions that America would have lost without French support is trying to prove a counterfactual. There are a lot of reasons to think that it would not have been so. Every southern campaign that the British had tried to pull off was a disaster. The cost to the British crown of maintaining a…

[deleted]

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#42

Post by akerl_ »

jacquesm wrote: post #36
tptacek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's "we"? "We" didn't do it as a joke. We just took it as one once it happened. By "we" I mean something like 66% of Gallup respondents at the time.

Gallup would do well to poll in Europe as well for such 'jokes'. Seriously: the US is a great country in many ways. But this sort of thing does enormous damage to its international reputation, much more than you might think. That joke became world news at the time and put the US in a very bad light. The person who made it happen (Walter Jones) eventually recanted and wished he had never done it (props to him), but th…

"66% percent thought it was a silly idea" does not mean that 33% saw it as "reflecting reality". The 33% thought it was a sincere reflection of the patriotism of the people saying "freedom fries". The poll in question: https://news.gallup.com/poll/8032/majority-americans-view-fr...

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#43

Post by akerl_ »

jacquesm wrote: post #39
tptacek wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've done all sorts of stuff to durably damage our international reputation (invading Iraq seems like it ought to be pretty high on the list). "Freedom Fries" isn't one of them. At any rate, I'm only here because you suggested that the stunt had "broad support". It had the opposite of that. Virtually nobody supported it. Most people couldn't even believe the GOP was serious (and, I mean, they weren't.)

The stunt had broad support at the time. Enough to get it to the point where there wasn't a news outlet in the world that did not cover it (and the absurdity of it). And it is precisely because it was in relation to the Iraq war being misguided that it has relevance: you either unquestioningly follow the US on every adventure or you risk being belittled by the most powerful nation on the planet, no matter what your h…

News outlets covering something does not indicate that it has broad support. I'm not seeing any evidence that it had broad support, and I'm seeing evidence from the aforementioned Gallup poll that it did not have broad support. Can you back your claim up in some way?

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#44

Post by jacquesm »

pvg wrote: post #34
jacquesm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right here in this thread there are examples of precisely the sentiment that I tried to address with my comment. That's proof enough for me that those sentiments are alive and well and that is - from my perspective, at least - a pity. Given that there is again a war going on in Europe and that there are some pretty strong voices for Ukraine to surrender part - or even all - of their territory to Russia to save on the…

All sorts of sentiments are around in all sorts of threads. What you can't do is write sweeping generalizations about entire massive categories of people. It's a totally basic rule of any vaguely sane forum beside being simply common decency.

Ok, so we'll do away with the sweeping generalizations and I'll try to rephrase it in a way that it is factually correct without stepping over those boundaries, let me know if it gets a pass or not:

In France and amongst French people the prevailing sentiment is that an everlasting debt is owed to the United States and other allied forces that helped liberate France from the Germans at the conclusion of World War II. This is for instance apparent in the maintenance of war cemeteries, names of many streets and commemorative plaques and annual ceremonies. It is taught in schools from an early age and an important part of the history curriculum. No equivalent reciprocal feeling exist in the United States for the contribution that the French had to the origin story of that country. On the contrary, the French are often portrayed in negative ways when it comes to their stance with respect to engaging in military action, such as exemplified during the run-up to the Iraq war by certain elements of the United States administration and some of their followers. A number of Americans is unaware of the historical ties between France and the United States and has a negative view of France as an ally.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#45

Post by jacquesm »

akerl_ wrote: post #42
jacquesm wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gallup would do well to poll in Europe as well for such 'jokes'. Seriously: the US is a great country in many ways. But this sort of thing does enormous damage to its international reputation, much more than you might think. That joke became world news at the time and put the US in a very bad light. The person who made it happen (Walter Jones) eventually recanted and wished he had never done it (props to him), but th…

"66% percent thought it was a silly idea" does not mean that 33% saw it as "reflecting reality". The 33% thought it was a sincere reflection of the patriotism of the people saying "freedom fries". The poll in question: https://news.gallup.com/poll/8032/majority-americans-view-fr...

You missed this bit:

"The poll, conducted March 14-15, shows that 64% of Americans currently express an unfavorable view of France, while only about half that number, 34%, have a favorable view. "

That's the kind of damage such a thing does, silly idea or not.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#46

Post by Nomentatus »

InTheArena wrote: post #8
mncharity wrote: post #6

> The stunning success at Saratoga gave Franklin what he had been pleading for — explicit French support in the war. Or, in contrast to a story of straightforward military system-y tipping point, perhaps ... > The Battle of Saratoga was [...] not pivotal in convincing France that the rebels could defeat Britain. [...] French support depended far more upon court intrigue [1] > “sometimes history happens by accident,”…

As someone who studied American history, this point of view always irks me a little bit. The reality of it is that all of the assumptions that America would have lost without French support is trying to prove a counterfactual. There are a lot of reasons to think that it would not have been so. Every southern campaign that the British had tried to pull off was a disaster. The cost to the British crown of maintaining a…

It's a maxim that guerrilla wars succeed with a lot of external help and supply, if they succeed at all, throughout history. That's fact. The French were financial supporters from before the shooting began; and supplied high tech gunpowder that meant that from the start the colonists' muskets had significantly more range, no small thing. Without France, nothing. The French ended up bankrupting the state due to extreme overspending on the Americans' war, and sliding into revolution themselves. (Although weather wrecking crops after the eruption of an Icelandic volcano was a large factor as well.) The Americans deserve great credit, but they owe tremendous debts of gratitude, too.

Washington had to keep British costs high while not losing, he couldn't just sit.

Mass conscription is difficult if you can't pay or properly feed or clothe the army you have and a big portion of your own population opposed to you.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#47

Post by chasil »

InTheArena wrote: post #8
mncharity wrote: post #6

> The stunning success at Saratoga gave Franklin what he had been pleading for — explicit French support in the war. Or, in contrast to a story of straightforward military system-y tipping point, perhaps ... > The Battle of Saratoga was [...] not pivotal in convincing France that the rebels could defeat Britain. [...] French support depended far more upon court intrigue [1] > “sometimes history happens by accident,”…

As someone who studied American history, this point of view always irks me a little bit. The reality of it is that all of the assumptions that America would have lost without French support is trying to prove a counterfactual. There are a lot of reasons to think that it would not have been so. Every southern campaign that the British had tried to pull off was a disaster. The cost to the British crown of maintaining a…

Washington lost most, if not all of the major battles that he fought.

His opponent, General Howe, obviously had sympathy for the American cause, as he stayed the hand of destruction many times.

It was only when General Nathaniel Green was unleashed that victory favored us, ripping Tarlelton and Cornwallis' forces to tatters, giving us Yorktown.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#48

Post by akerl_ »

jacquesm wrote: post #45
akerl_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"66% percent thought it was a silly idea" does not mean that 33% saw it as "reflecting reality". The 33% thought it was a sincere reflection of the patriotism of the people saying "freedom fries". The poll in question: https://news.gallup.com/poll/8032/majority-americans-view-fr...

You missed this bit: "The poll, conducted March 14-15, shows that 64% of Americans currently express an unfavorable view of France, while only about half that number, 34%, have a favorable view. " That's the kind of damage such a thing does, silly idea or not.

That's a pretty different thing than there being broad support for "freedom fries", or that the freedom fries thing was a relevant factor in affecting how citizens of other countries view the US or Americans.

The US population's approval rating of our own elected government officials swings to a similar extent in basically every election cycle, so it's hard for me to imagine a world where that shift applied to a foreign country moves the needle on perception of the US.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#49

Post by jacquesm »

akerl_ wrote: post #48
jacquesm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed this bit: "The poll, conducted March 14-15, shows that 64% of Americans currently express an unfavorable view of France, while only about half that number, 34%, have a favorable view. " That's the kind of damage such a thing does, silly idea or not.

That's a pretty different thing than there being broad support for "freedom fries", or that the freedom fries thing was a relevant factor in affecting how citizens of other countries view the US or Americans. The US population's approval rating of our own elected government officials swings to a similar extent in basically every election cycle, so it's hard for me to imagine a world where that shift applied to a fore…

You may not believe that such a thing has an effect on the broader sentiment of how the population of one country views another but I believe it does and Gallup's own poll seems to at least confirm some correlation, possibly not causation.

The trope of the French as 'cowardly cheese eating surrender monkeys' is well known enough to have it's own wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese-eating_surrender_monkey...), and even though it started as a joke and never was intended to be used in any other way those sentiments have a way of leaking out of their container and infusing society.

You will not find a mirror image sentiment in France. Whatever the cause and whatever the effects it seems strange to have such sentiments towards a country that was instrumental in the birth of your own, including shipping the Statue Of Liberty at a time that France could ill afford such symbolic luxuries, and yet they felt it important enough to make that gesture.

So this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-French_sentiment_in_the_U... is a bad symptom and as far as I am concerned should not be the case.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#50

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jacquesm wrote: post #29
tptacek wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, "broad support"? It was a national joke at the time, and remains one of the great national jokes of the past 20 years. It was polled at the time (God help us) and a supermajority reported the idea was "silly". No restaurant chain in the country participated; so far as I know, it was only at the House cafeteria. Come on. I call shenanigans. You can't play the "freedom fries" card. Find another one! (The imp…

I guarantee you that on this side of the pond it wasn't received as a joke. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CheeseEatingSurr... You can downplay it all you want, the fact is that this sort of thing happens and it can't just be shrugged off by 'oh, we were just joking' because of the context in which those things happened. Symbolism is a thing and by having your official governing bodies involved you lose…

The person who said it wasn't joking. They weren't speaking for the rest of us, though, and the rest of us thought what they said was stupid.

And see, that kind of thing goes both ways. Every stupid thing anyone says in France against America, we hear that and take it seriously.

You've got your hotheads. So do we. As we ignore our own, maybe we should ignore each others' as well.

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