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How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

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Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#31

Post by jacquesm »

pvg wrote: post #28
jacquesm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What wording would satisfy your criteria of not being flame bait while still being allowed to discuss the subject?

They're the site's criteria? You know them just as well as I do, I honestly don't get what you're asking.

Right here in this thread there are examples of precisely the sentiment that I tried to address with my comment. That's proof enough for me that those sentiments are alive and well and that is - from my perspective, at least - a pity. Given that there is again a war going on in Europe and that there are some pretty strong voices for Ukraine to surrender part - or even all - of their territory to Russia to save on the expense and because that is the inevitable outcome makes this sort of lack of historical awareness a real problem.

You can disavow it, and I do not doubt that you do have that historical awareness but unfortunately the sentiment exists, is real and likely will be more and more forceful in the coming years.

If France had had that attitude then likely the USA as we know it today would not exist, and for that the French deserve lasting recognition. It also underlines - at least for me - that we, the 'free world' are in this together and that if we don't stand united eventually we will fall. The French had plenty of reasons to question the Iraq war - some good, some not so good - but to be insulted like that was counterproductive, to put it mildly.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#32

Post by jongjong »

ericmay wrote: post #26
Waterluvian wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may, I feel a bit irked that we often see these outcomes as binary. Wouldn’t the absence of French involvement be likely to have caused a considerable change in social, political, and economic landscape, regardless of who ultimately “won”? I’ve been thinking about how different paces to the Ukraine war’s culmination (eg. we increase support by 10x tomorrow) could have significant impacts on future attitudes and…

I’m not sure lack of French support would have made a difference with how we understand America today assuming the Americans had still won, but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects.

The US would not have been anywhere near as successful financially and its population size would probably only have been a fraction of what it is today.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#33

Post by tptacek »

jacquesm wrote: post #29
tptacek wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, "broad support"? It was a national joke at the time, and remains one of the great national jokes of the past 20 years. It was polled at the time (God help us) and a supermajority reported the idea was "silly". No restaurant chain in the country participated; so far as I know, it was only at the House cafeteria. Come on. I call shenanigans. You can't play the "freedom fries" card. Find another one! (The imp…

I guarantee you that on this side of the pond it wasn't received as a joke. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CheeseEatingSurr... You can downplay it all you want, the fact is that this sort of thing happens and it can't just be shrugged off by 'oh, we were just joking' because of the context in which those things happened. Symbolism is a thing and by having your official governing bodies involved you lose…

Who's "we"? "We" didn't do it as a joke. We just took it as one once it happened. By "we" I mean something like 66% of Gallup respondents at the time.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#34

Post by pvg »

jacquesm wrote: post #31
pvg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're the site's criteria? You know them just as well as I do, I honestly don't get what you're asking.

Right here in this thread there are examples of precisely the sentiment that I tried to address with my comment. That's proof enough for me that those sentiments are alive and well and that is - from my perspective, at least - a pity. Given that there is again a war going on in Europe and that there are some pretty strong voices for Ukraine to surrender part - or even all - of their territory to Russia to save on the…

All sorts of sentiments are around in all sorts of threads. What you can't do is write sweeping generalizations about entire massive categories of people. It's a totally basic rule of any vaguely sane forum beside being simply common decency.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#35

Post by ericmay »

jongjong wrote: post #32
ericmay wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure lack of French support would have made a difference with how we understand America today assuming the Americans had still won, but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects.

The US would not have been anywhere near as successful financially and its population size would probably only have been a fraction of what it is today.

Yea maybe. Interesting to think about. Pros/cons.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#36

Post by jacquesm »

tptacek wrote: post #33
jacquesm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee you that on this side of the pond it wasn't received as a joke. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CheeseEatingSurr... You can downplay it all you want, the fact is that this sort of thing happens and it can't just be shrugged off by 'oh, we were just joking' because of the context in which those things happened. Symbolism is a thing and by having your official governing bodies involved you lose…

Who's "we"? "We" didn't do it as a joke. We just took it as one once it happened. By "we" I mean something like 66% of Gallup respondents at the time.

Gallup would do well to poll in Europe as well for such 'jokes'.

Seriously: the US is a great country in many ways. But this sort of thing does enormous damage to its international reputation, much more than you might think. That joke became world news at the time and put the US in a very bad light. The person who made it happen (Walter Jones) eventually recanted and wished he had never done it (props to him), but the damage is real and lasting, and unfortunately reflects some aspect of American society that isn't all that nice. Just look at your own comment: if 66% of Americans polled see/saw it as a joke ('har har, those cowardly French, upset at a joke') that implies that 33% see it as reflecting reality. That's the thing you should be amazed at, rather than to trot it out as proof that it isn't a problem.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#38

Post by tptacek »

jacquesm wrote: post #36
tptacek wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's "we"? "We" didn't do it as a joke. We just took it as one once it happened. By "we" I mean something like 66% of Gallup respondents at the time.

Gallup would do well to poll in Europe as well for such 'jokes'. Seriously: the US is a great country in many ways. But this sort of thing does enormous damage to its international reputation, much more than you might think. That joke became world news at the time and put the US in a very bad light. The person who made it happen (Walter Jones) eventually recanted and wished he had never done it (props to him), but th…

We've done all sorts of stuff to durably damage our international reputation (invading Iraq seems like it ought to be pretty high on the list). "Freedom Fries" isn't one of them. At any rate, I'm only here because you suggested that the stunt had "broad support". It had the opposite of that. Virtually nobody supported it. Most people couldn't even believe the GOP was serious (and, I mean, they weren't.)

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#39

Post by jacquesm »

tptacek wrote: post #38
jacquesm wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gallup would do well to poll in Europe as well for such 'jokes'. Seriously: the US is a great country in many ways. But this sort of thing does enormous damage to its international reputation, much more than you might think. That joke became world news at the time and put the US in a very bad light. The person who made it happen (Walter Jones) eventually recanted and wished he had never done it (props to him), but th…

We've done all sorts of stuff to durably damage our international reputation (invading Iraq seems like it ought to be pretty high on the list). "Freedom Fries" isn't one of them. At any rate, I'm only here because you suggested that the stunt had "broad support". It had the opposite of that. Virtually nobody supported it. Most people couldn't even believe the GOP was serious (and, I mean, they weren't.)

The stunt had broad support at the time. Enough to get it to the point where there wasn't a news outlet in the world that did not cover it (and the absurdity of it). And it is precisely because it was in relation to the Iraq war being misguided that it has relevance: you either unquestioningly follow the US on every adventure or you risk being belittled by the most powerful nation on the planet, no matter what your historical ties are.

Re: How France Changed the Tides of the American Revolution (2018)

#40

Post by Larrikin »

jongjong wrote: post #32
ericmay wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure lack of French support would have made a difference with how we understand America today assuming the Americans had still won, but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects.

The US would not have been anywhere near as successful financially and its population size would probably only have been a fraction of what it is today.

Would slavery have ended sooner or later if the British had won?
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