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Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

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Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#71

Post by Spooky23 »

joemazerino wrote: post #13
llamaimperative wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real story of every tragedy that hits a reservation is that they all sit downstream of a horrific, orchestrated genocide campaign intended to destroy these people’s history, culture, and knowledge of self-sufficiency. Put ‘em on the shittiest plots of land you can find, steal their children, ban them from speaking their languages and from passing their knowledge between generations, then we can sit and gawk at th…

A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?

They are people warehoused in obscure rural areas with subsistence support.

They get enough to live not enough to thrive. The federal government provided healthcare, for example, but funds it in such a way that they run out of operating funds in month 10 or 11 of the annual budget.

Like most people in this sort situation, the malaise takes over. Alcohol and drug abuse is rampant. Opportunity is nil. Breaking out of the cycle is very difficult and requires an individual to have the right combination of luck, street smarts, ability and ability to walk away that is hard to find.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#72

Post by ilyt »

pigsty wrote: post #18
PM_me_your_math wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just seems to me that they would be more effective if worn. Even if they don't fit, cut them up and stitch up gloves and cover-ups.

I’m not asking this to be condescending, but have you ever felt cold? My hands lose all dexterity entirely in winter. With sufficiently cold weather my hands are either cold, stiff, and in pain, or I’m wearing gloves that are too bulky to be useful for anything other than crudely gripping large objects or swatting things away. These people are experiencing cold beyond what I’ve ever experienced, so I can’t even begin…

well the article cites -20 I assume based on area F so ~ -7C

...really -7C is cold beyond what you ever experienced ? It's not too bad. I'd imagine the main problem is if those temperatures are rare just nobody have proper clothes to handle it

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#73

Post by starkd »

gadders wrote: post #31
xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

Net zero will make this more common, sadly, either through energy insecurity or people being unable to afford to heat their homes.

I can't imagine what people in upstate NY are going to do in temperatures like this with only a heat pump, since they are trying to transition everyone off gas or oil. A heat pump is next to worthless in sub zero temps. Many will use wood.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#75

Post by ck2 »

I could make a horrible joke that at least lithium batteries in an EV would burn for days if not weeks for warmth.

But if I had to suffer by boiling in a desert vs sub-freezing cold stealing all heat, I would take the boiling, freezing feels like death way before it happens.

I imagine too much modern comfort somehow dulls survival prep and caution in the winter in those areas. Too many "easy" winters and caution fades just like people in Florida who avoid hurricanes for several years disregard warnings about a new one to their downfall.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#76

Post by jrochkind1 »

nottorp wrote: post #57
zdragnar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article, the community has stockpiled resources, but their plows and skidsteers are all out of commission. They literally cannot get to the firewood, and every time they clear some snow out more blows in. Some people have been completely isolated in their homes for 8 days. I'd say most people, even in rural areas, don't have a supply that'll last longer than that, except for some hardcore preppers.

How's the winter in that area normally ? Because i've lived my first ~16 years of life in a home heated with firewood (and coal but it's irellevant now) and by the end of september all the fuel needed for 3 months of winter was neatly piled up within easy reach of the house. All you needed was to shovel like 20 meters of path and maybe a wheelbarrow. Why would you need something motorized to get to your firewood? Doe…

I don't know the details, but they are very very poor (Pine Ridge is often calculated to have the highest unemployment and lowest per capita income in the entire country; life expectancy is ~50 years), and I'm not sure how forrested the land is, it's mostly grassland/prairie.

The OP article suggested that many people ordinarily use propane heat, which normally can be delivered just fine. I don't know enough to say why not firewood, but I'd guess expense and convenience. Aha, this other article mentions a firewood shortage, but doesn't say details:

> In homes heated by firewood, there is another battle. Yellow Hair says there is a firewood shortage happening on the reservation, but communities are coming together to help one another. “Lending that helping hand, when they can and where they can,” said Yellow Hair. Keeping people warm is an issue across much of the Pine Ridge Reservation, with a firewood shortage and propane trucks jelling up from the cold.

—https://www.blackhillsfox.com/2022/12/22/one-natural-phenome...

And here's an article about life in Pine Ridge generally:

> Among the most impoverished of these reservations, Pine Ridge is plagued by an 80 to 90 percent unemployment rate with a median individual income of $4,000 a year, according to the Re-Member nonprofit organisation’s 2007 statistics.

— https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2016/11/2/life-on-the-pin...

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#77

Post by c-fe »

zdragnar wrote: post #15
kwhitefoot wrote: post #7

The real story here seems to me to be not that people burned their clothes to stay warm but that people in a place with fragile connections to the outside world had so little in the way of supplies to weather a relatively short period without food deliveries. I'm not blaming them, I assume that many of the affected people don't have the resources to keep a buffer stock.

From the article, the community has stockpiled resources, but their plows and skidsteers are all out of commission. They literally cannot get to the firewood, and every time they clear some snow out more blows in. Some people have been completely isolated in their homes for 8 days. I'd say most people, even in rural areas, don't have a supply that'll last longer than that, except for some hardcore preppers.

> I'd say most people, even in rural areas, don't have a supply that'll last longer than that, except for some hardcore preppers.

I disagree. Or, at least where I live (densely populated europe), nearly everyone with their own house has at lease one (small) fireplace with some wood stored outside, typically enough for at least a month (otherwhise, do you go shopping wood every week?). Food-wise I agree that 8 days may touch the limits of food supply for families, but I know plenty people that have pasta / rice in stock for days. And this is in Europe without any wilderness. I cant believe that more rural americans are less equiped than this altough maybe I am wrong.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#78

Post by mynameishere »

eternalban wrote: post #62
llamaimperative wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real story of every tragedy that hits a reservation is that they all sit downstream of a horrific, orchestrated genocide campaign intended to destroy these people’s history, culture, and knowledge of self-sufficiency. Put ‘em on the shittiest plots of land you can find, steal their children, ban them from speaking their languages and from passing their knowledge between generations, then we can sit and gawk at th…

I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology curve and I truly wonder would they have fared better if Japanese or Russian (or possibly even Chinese) colonists (the closest geographic candidate colonists) showed up. Consider it as a thought experiment - something that's been popping in my head lately: under…

If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#79

Post by anderber »

xyzelement wrote: post #22

This triggered two thoughts for me. First, how much of a killer the cold is. We've moved on from "global warming" to "climate change" language but there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise (such as Latvia where I am from). Today, cold kills hundreds of thousands of people a year, while "heat deaths" are limited to geriatrics in the "first world." Second, preparedn…

> there are a lot of places in the world that would be grateful for a few degree temperature rise

That's not how global warming works. It's not a "everywhere will go up 1 degree". It causes more extremes. Hot places can get hotter, cold places colder, but overall, the average goes up.

Re: Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth in wake of storm

#80

Post by ilyt »

glogla wrote: post #64
giardini wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the fireplace ready to use? Is it clear of obstructions (e.g., birds, bats and insect nests)? Have you cleared out any "creosote" (deposition from incomplete past combustion) which can make the chimney burn like a jet engine (very exciting)? Actually started a fire in the chimney and keeping it burning safely for several days can be enlightening (i hesitate to say "fun", except for the children). Try it with someo…

Moreover, the way fireplaces work is that the fire heats up some kind of heavy construction (cast iron, brick, etc) and that then radiates heat. Not every fireplace is built that way - some of them are decorative and will actually make you colder. Quite a few people found out in not a nice way last time Texas has winter storm.

Yeah if you want to rely on it as heat source you should probably get something modern that doesn't waste exhaust heat and doesn't suck the air out of the room getting more cold air in. Not just "a hole in a roof above a fire".
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