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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#341

Post by m463 »

d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

- even an unheated garage will mitigate extremely low overnight temperatures

- if you install a 220v charger with a 60a circuit breaker, you can charge up to 48 amps

- keep the car plugged in all the time - not only to charge, but to keep the battery warm and even preheat the car for a toasty drive.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#342

Post by lelanthran »

simfree wrote: post #46
gambiting wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But......EVs do work in cold weather? You lose a bit of range, but so what? My ICE car also gets worse mileage in winter. And if you're talking about extremes - then there's a reason why block heaters with external power connections are very common in certain places - even the best ICE struggles to start in -40C or less.

18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my experience. EV driving can be more efficient if you don't let your battery cold soak for hours, or equally inefficient if you do leave your car unplugged overnight.

> 18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my experience.

That sounds like nonsense. What were you driving that had such a reduced mileage?

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#343

Post by smiley1437 »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #320
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Plug-in hybrids are strangely missing from online discussions. Are they too heavy or something? Cause it seems perfect to me. Run electric day-to-day when the weather affords. Run gas for long trips or bad conditions. No need for a giant 300 mile battery made with minerals from a developing country. Nor a huge ICE, since you can shrink it to a very narrow power band and rely on the batteries for peak power like take-…

A plug-in hybrid, while eminently practical, has the unenviable position of being perceived as a half-measure

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#344

Post by lelanthran »

Swenrekcah wrote: post #131
alphabettsy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather. People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles. > I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately. Engines do not freeze i…

> People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles. I’m curious about that recommendation, do you know why that is?

> I’m curious about that recommendation, do you know why that is?

I was always told (since the 90s, anyway) that it's better to drive off slowly with a cold engine and let all the components come up to operating temperature together than to drive off with a hot engine, and cold gearbox, driveshafts, tyres, etc.

I generally let a cold engine (i.e. overnight) idle for maybe 30s before driving off slowly, and it reaches operating temperature in about 5m or less.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#345

Post by fwungy »

Beltalowda wrote: post #309
xyzelement wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I am less stressed about this than you are. I remember someone ranting at me in the 90s about peak oil and how our kids will live in the stone ages because we'll run out (their thesis of course was that ppl shouldn't have kids) Science evolves as does technology, and inevitably both factors will change over the coming decades. To base your life around the worst case predictions of models (where the disaster m…

> Science evolves as does technology, and inevitably both factors will change over the coming decades. To base your life around the worst case predictions of models (where the disaster moment keeps pushing back as time progresses) is not logical. Operating on the basis of the most extremist "worst case" scenarios that are very unlikely (like your "peak oil" example) probably doesn't make too much sense, but it's prob…

Climate Change, even if it's as bad as the aggressive models predict, is an intractable problem.

1) There are trillions of dollars in petroleum reserves in the ground. This is money in the pockets of people, e.g. Putin. They aren't going to let go of that easily.

2) China and India have no realistic pathway to zero carbon and will buy the oil that isn't bought by the G7 sustainable nations. Most of the world's population will follow them.

The only valid response is mitigation. Amsterdam is below sea level. It is far easier to detect and solve real problems than try to predict massive problems in the distant future.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#346

Post by lelanthran »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #90
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

The majority of the country doesn't live in an area that regularly gets extremely cold and even fewer people drive 100 miles every other day. EVs are always getting better, and they’re already good enough for most people. I live in an area that does get below freezing, and my car preheats the battery before I unplug it to go somewhere while the cabin warms.

> EVs are always getting better, and they’re already good enough for most people.

If they're good enough for only most people, why are they mandating it for everyone?

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#347

Post by piotrkaminski »

xyst wrote: post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

> public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility)

In the kind of cold weather that cuts EV range, per the OP? I've been there, and thanks but no thanks -- I'm too old for that shit. I'll stick to my car even if its range is reduced.

> Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people.

This I heartily agree with, but it can be compatible with cars if we can get self-driving finally sorted out. Just have your car drop you off, then go out of the city to wait for you (and perhaps charge itself at the same time).

> Death to the suburban experiment.

Suburbs have different problems than cities do, but I'm not convinced they're particularly worse or more plentiful, and there are certainly other (dare I say better?) ways to solve them than abolishing suburbs outright.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#348

Post by jsjohnst »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #302
Schnitz wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

I dont have 220 in the garage. Of course 220 is coming into the panel but there is no circuit breaker, wiring or outlet. In my experience this is common. 220 is only provided for washers, stoves, and HVAC. Can a 220 outlet be added, certainly, but it is not default.

Washing machines very rarely are 240V in the US, they usually are 120V. It’s electric dryers that are 240V.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#349

Post by wiretap »

isityouyesitsme wrote: post #305
defrost wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world. Well, FWiW the Australian (and New Zealand) standard across the entire country is 240v with (most) internal circuits rated for 10 A .. but a call to an electrician gets you a { 15 | 20 | 25 | 32 } amp circuit pulled from the household breaker box (if high amp circuits weren't added at build time) [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 In other…

Right, so because your state and country is ahead in this area, everyone else is "a hut in Siberia?" My comment specifically mentioned a 2030 or 2035 mandate, which is a US mandate. Why would you argue against a US mandate by talking about Australia? You're not doing the EV group any favors by ignoring the problems people describe that prevent them from buying one, and there is currently no US legislation to enable a…

This is also a mandate in Canada for 2035, and I feel like you are being unfair and a little bit snarky to the other commenter (who didn't make the comment about Siberia).

This is actually a larger problem in Canada than the US, and most of the political and policy discussion is in favour of this change.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#350

Post by fsckboy »

Schnitz wrote: post #162
akmarinov wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

the 220 circuit to your dryer and the 220 circuit to your electric stove do not have the capacity to add more items to the wiring (the stove is a much higher capacity circuit btw). Yes, it's true that you wouldn't need to use your car charger while you use your appliances, but that's not how residential building code circuits work. I suppose there must be or at least could be a solution to switch the power over? But you can't just go plugging it in and remain within code.

my brother does a lot of stuff with power tools, and whenever he moves he has to have extra lines brought in by the power company. While houses frequently have 220 coming in, they don't have 3-phase.

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