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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#331

Post by alwayslikethis »

jhoechtl wrote: post #317
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

I really hope the way EV infrastructure is set up in the US wil not take over to Europe. I really hope that alternative energy storage like hydrogen make the race. Present battery technology for cod winter Europe is not practical.

Much of the interior US has colder winters than most of Europe barring the far north of Scandinavia and Russia.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#332

Post by jhoechtl »

estebank wrote: post #289
alphabettsy wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diesel passenger cars aren’t popular in the US, certainly not in the segments that compete with EVs. You’re right but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not the right time for people in certain areas or with certain lifestyles to have an EV.

Why is it that when it comes to transportation the discussion is always talking past each other? "Trucks don't belong in cities for personal transportation." "I need a truck for my farm." "Vehicle transportation is a huge chunk of global warming contributing fuel consumption, so we need to reduce car usage in cities towards more and better public transport, and EVs when possible." "I don't live in a city and the bus…

> No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal.

Certainly in Europe. Not directly but via a back door:

Must not enter the city center in a diesel car

No new ICE cars after 2035

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#333

Post by bruce511 »

jiggawatts wrote: post #115
jws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

I heard stories about Russians in the red army setting a pan of fuel on fire under the engine block of their trucks to warm them up sufficiently to turn over and start. Apparently some truck models over there have a built-in metal tray for this purpose.

A long time ago, in a land far far away, I drop a fire engine. Big monster, 37 tons, with a giant v16 Rolls Royce diesel moter.

It didn't like starting in the cold, and it didn't have battery enough to crank it for long. And failure-to-start was, um, not good.

The solution was a built-in electric heater and charger. Basically it was permanently plugged in so the battery was 100%,and the engine block was "not freezing cold" (I wouldn't go as far as "warm").

Had a push button start that fired up instantly, at the cost of an extra 3 seconds unplugging it it an emergency.

My point I guess is that you don't really have to heat the garage, you just need to warm the battery up a little.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#334

Post by alwayslikethis »

swagasaurus-rex wrote: post #315
xyst wrote: post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

I have a bold proposal for solving the streets in city crisis: Between buildings, build an elevated walkway above the roads. With ventilation these walkways could cover a large part if not all of the area above roads. Promote social spaces, commerce areas, and open areas between buildings without sacrificing cars. Just build above them.

Now, who would pay for this? Car drivers? City dwellers?

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#335

Post by jhoechtl »

Renevith wrote: post #296
krater23 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. I don't know where you live, but here in Germany my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C around 10 years ago. Biggest problem was heating the interior that the windows remain ice free during driving.…

Just yesterday I drove 75km in -22C, parked outside all day, then back home the same distance in -19C. Took my Model Y from 80% to 12%. No problem with heat either (that's part of why it used so much charge). I was a lot more worried about sliding off the road than running out of battery... I believe you that it's no problem for a diesel. But it's no problem for electric either.

What if you wouldn't make it home and have a night outside? Two times 75km and down to 12% charge is not inspiring confidence in such situations!

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#336

Post by jhoechtl »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #320
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Plug-in hybrids are strangely missing from online discussions. Are they too heavy or something? Cause it seems perfect to me. Run electric day-to-day when the weather affords. Run gas for long trips or bad conditions. No need for a giant 300 mile battery made with minerals from a developing country. Nor a huge ICE, since you can shrink it to a very narrow power band and rely on the batteries for peak power like take-…

Yeah, strangely people talk as if hybrid id a thing of the past although its the best of both worlds.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#337

Post by jhoechtl »

simfree wrote: post #46
gambiting wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But......EVs do work in cold weather? You lose a bit of range, but so what? My ICE car also gets worse mileage in winter. And if you're talking about extremes - then there's a reason why block heaters with external power connections are very common in certain places - even the best ICE struggles to start in -40C or less.

18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my experience. EV driving can be more efficient if you don't let your battery cold soak for hours, or equally inefficient if you do leave your car unplugged overnight.

Yeah additional electric heaters and stiff oil reduce mileage but Nowhere in that range.

Your car must be faulty.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#338

Post by nine_k »

brianglick wrote: post #28
d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

You wouldn't really need a heated garage (at home, anyway) if you had a 220 volt charger. That should be able to overcome any charging challenges in extreme cold, anyway. Relatively easy to get that into your garage. Also - if you arrive at your friend's place in the winter and park overnight, you won't lose a ton overnight if the car's just parked there.

I wonder when batteries will come with better thermal insulation to work during cold weather. A battery which is not near-dead has enough energy to heat itself to the point where its capacity increases a lot, given adequate thermal insulation.

(But, of course, that would require even better cooling for a battery on a summer +95F day. OTOH ICEs have a similar problem.)

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#339

Post by piotrkaminski »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #320
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Plug-in hybrids are strangely missing from online discussions. Are they too heavy or something? Cause it seems perfect to me. Run electric day-to-day when the weather affords. Run gas for long trips or bad conditions. No need for a giant 300 mile battery made with minerals from a developing country. Nor a huge ICE, since you can shrink it to a very narrow power band and rely on the batteries for peak power like take-…

I have much the same question -- it seems like PHEVs would be perfect for the next 10 years or so, while we improve batteries and build out charging infrastructure. And yet there are relatively few PHEVs on the market, and most of them have I'm really curious to see what Mazda will do with the MX-30 next year. It's an dismal failure as a pure EV, but apparently they're planning to add a rotary engine as a pure generator to it (i.e., not driving the wheels). If the car keeps the current version's 100 mile electric range that could be a very interesting combo.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#340

Post by vardump »

akmarinov wrote: post #138
cwalv wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

I think in Europe other than older buildings, garages have mostly 400V 3 phase. At least in northern parts, probably a lot worse in southern parts.
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