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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#111

Post by SamBam »

midasuni wrote: post #87
simfree wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18Mpg becomes 10Mpg or worse in the winter in my experience. EV driving can be more efficient if you don't let your battery cold soak for hours, or equally inefficient if you do leave your car unplugged overnight.

18mpg is 21mpg with U.K. gallons. My fairly large Skoda gets 45-50 in the real world, maybe dropping to 42 if I’m pushing it to 85mph on the motorway. Even back when I owned a mid 80s Nissan around 2000 I was getting 25mpg (us gallon). Why is US mileage so awful?

18mpg would generally be a pickup truck. You'd be hard-pressed to find a regular sedan that has mileage that bad.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#112

Post by pjkundert »

We’re just still in the early days of EV maturity.

I’ve driven in Canada for 40 years. Until modern low-viscosity oil capable engines — cars were required to be plugged in to block heaters for hours before attempting to start, at -20C and lower.

I didn’t expect EVs to perform better than gas vehicles; why would I, at this level of their maturity?

Diesel vehicles are even more brittle; oilfield workers simply don’t shut off their diesel trucks for days at a time, at low temperatures.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#113

Post by alphabettsy »

jws wrote: post #73
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

Diesel passenger cars aren’t popular in the US, certainly not in the segments that compete with EVs.

You’re right but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not the right time for people in certain areas or with certain lifestyles to have an EV.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#114

Post by simfree »

gambiting wrote: post #82
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got it. So just make sure your vehicle is constantly consuming energy and you'll never have an issue... unless the power is out for an extended period of time.

You never started your car and just let it warm up before setting off in winter? How much energy do you think that uses?

Letting the car consume a small amount of constant electricity to keep the battery above freezing is thankfully not very expensive compared to a standard space heater (usually 1.5kW at 720 hours a month, costing $150 a month in Seattle).

Defrosting and toasting the cabin to 92F in freezing conditions usually burns about 1.2kWh to 3kWh while plugged in, but that is just a few tens of cents (or free depending on the charger) to get nearly instantly toasty and ready to drive.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#115

Post by jiggawatts »

jws wrote: post #73
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

I heard stories about Russians in the red army setting a pan of fuel on fire under the engine block of their trucks to warm them up sufficiently to turn over and start.

Apparently some truck models over there have a built-in metal tray for this purpose.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#116

Post by cwalv »

jws wrote: post #73
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that w…

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#117

Post by jl6 »

rcarr wrote: post #38
gambiting wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire series of Long Way Up felt like it was filmed maybe ~5 years too early. So many of the issues were caused by the bikes just being prototypes. Also the solution is easy - when the car is plugged in, just heat the battery so it charges at optimal rate and is ready for your journey. Some cars already do this(the new BMW i4 and I guess the iX too)

> The entire series of Long Way Up felt like it was filmed maybe ~5 years too early. So many of the issues were caused by the bikes just being prototypes. That was kind of the point though: they wanted to push the boundaries of what was possible. There's a good quote attributed to Leonard Bernstein: > To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time. I feel like the project pushed Harl…

Long Way In, showcasing the latest in electric tunnel boring machinery to reach geothermal-power-generating depths. Who’s got the high ground now?

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#118

Post by alphabettsy »

hristov wrote: post #74
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

With an ICE car, if you park regularly in very cold weather, your car can fail randomly for an obscure reason and it can take a long time to figure it out or you will need a trip to the mechanic. Or you may need a massive and expensive repair. Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather. I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics t…

> Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather.

People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles.

> I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately.

Engines do not freeze in the conditions common in most of the US, even with winter like we’re currently having. The engine coolant is a mixture of anti-freeze and water.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#119

Post by simfree »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #103
gambiting wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You never started your car and just let it warm up before setting off in winter? How much energy do you think that uses?

No. That's a waste of a useful resource. It's also illegal in various places.

Driving with an iced over window impairing visibility is illegal in most places, you have to address this with defrosting and perhaps scraping before moving the vehicle.

Idling combustion vehicles is bad, but sometimes it's a necessary evil to ensure visibility so the driver can avoid harming other road users.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#120

Post by greenthrow »

There's two main challenges for EVs in cold weather that cause extra use of energy vs warm weather; warming up the battery pack and warming up the cabin.

ICE vehicles also run less efficiently when the engine is cold, so this part is roughly analogous even if there is more extra energy required to heat the battery pack.

The main difference is that once the engine is warm, ICE vehicles can then heat the cabin "for free" using waste heat because an ICE is so incredibly inefficient. This waste heat is useless when it is warm but a nice bonus when it is cold. EVs must expressly spend energy to create warmth for the cabin.

But this is also why most EV owners know to schedule your vehicle to warm up while it is still plugged in before you depart. One advantage is that you can do this in a closed garage with an EV and not worry about fumes.

Cold weather reduces range on all vehicles, it's just more noticeable on EVs due to having less excess range and the aforementioned heating concerns.

But I drove a 2014 Leaf for 8 years here in Michigan, without issue. That's a low range vehicle in a very cold climate. It's totally fine.

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