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Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

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Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#91

Post by Schroedingersat »

struggle2 wrote: post #5
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #2

If weight is the issue, well fine. But they deliver (back of the envelope) 37W per square meter. While conventional panels deliver ~200. So any application that's space-limited, these are not a win. And isn't that, every home installation?

In Germany (and I think in the EU) you have a max. weight for cars of about 3.5T (~7716 pounds). You can drive cars that weight more than that but then your speed is limited to (I think 80-100km/h), you have to pay (more) toll and more importantly you have to get a special drivers license in most cases (cost + time). Camper vans usually get very close to that limit. Even if the van has only 2 sleeping spots. Weight i…

Those flexible panels you mentioned are around 17% efficient and 50-100W/kg. Cells bonded to a fiberglass structure you're making anyway go around 200W/kg

5% efficient cells only make sense if applying them is about the same cost as paint and in applications like highway barriers or walls.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#92

Post by kragen »

jldugger wrote: post #90
kragen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

investment into renewables is a life or death situation for every country if your energy costs 7¢ per megajoule and you are being invaded by an opponent whose energy costs 0.7¢ per megajoule you are probably going to lose i don't understand why the capacity factor for utility-scale pv in prc is so low but evidently they did not 'drop solar panels [in the desert] and tramsmit power to the nearby megatropolis'

> evidently they did not 'drop solar panels [in the desert] and tramsmit power to the nearby megatropolis' I mean, I browsed the desert northeast of Beijing and found what looks like a solar installation, right next to some wind turbines. No idea how to estimate capacity from that, and without streetview to confirm it, I'm just making guesses based on how the pixels look.

can you estimate what fraction of their power generation does that installation account for

like roughly how many square meters is it

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#93

Post by mwint »

mrguyorama wrote: post #51
barney54 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with solar awnings is the cost. It's much more cost-effective to install solar on a field or an open area than a parking lot. Parking lot installations much more expensive because of the additional infrastructure needed.

As we phase out gasoline powered vehicles over the next... like forever, we will have less use for ethanol produced from corn syrup, nevermind we should be reducing corn syrup in food production as well. We should be paying midwestern corn farmers to replace their corn fields with solar panels. People complain about so much when it comes to green energy. "Oh transmission losses will eat into it so we can't transmit i…

Because if you try to build anything in Nevada, someone will scream about rare desert tortoises or something and you’ll be stuck in court forever.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#94

Post by mwint »

struggle2 wrote: post #47
ilyt wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The limit is for maximum authorized mass (which is basically "what manufacturer says" it can carry max) not current mass. I doubt anyone will ticket you over being 10 kilos extra... On top of that you could probably pick any other part to make lighter and come out cheaper than buying fancy solar panels

No you are incorrect. There are 2 maximum masses: the one from the manufacturer and then the legal mass limit. Legal mass limit = MIN(3.5t, max mass according to manufacturer) or more precisely MIN(max_mass_you_are_certified_for, may_mass_according_to_manufacturer). It is not about + or - 10 kg. But things definitely add up. 10kg here - 10kg there. Solar panels is something that is under the control of whoever buys t…

Who is weighing your van, and when? Genuine question, as this practically doesn’t happen in the US for anything with fewer than 18 wheels.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#95

Post by jldugger »

kragen wrote: post #92
jldugger wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> evidently they did not 'drop solar panels [in the desert] and tramsmit power to the nearby megatropolis' I mean, I browsed the desert northeast of Beijing and found what looks like a solar installation, right next to some wind turbines. No idea how to estimate capacity from that, and without streetview to confirm it, I'm just making guesses based on how the pixels look.

can you estimate what fraction of their power generation does that installation account for like roughly how many square meters is it

Almost certainly fuckall. I found three of these just by browsing the area but I'm not convinced they're even solar and not just... random arid agriculture I don't understand. More likely these are demonstration installs.

The big ones seem to be more in the northwest[0], much further out. The land there is even less productive, but I don't understand how transmission losses don't eat them alive.

    [0]: https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/largest-solar-plants-china/

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#96

Post by gofreddygo »

laurencerowe wrote: post #89
kube-system wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I just got a quote for a solar system here in the US, the price for the system was right around $40,000. Add in the cost of re installation when I need a roof replacement, and the break even is when the warranty expires.

Domestic rooftop solar no longer makes financial sense. Panels have gotten so cheap that installation costs now dominate. Utility scale solar can be built outright for the 30% subsidy offered on domestic solar.

> Utility scale solar can be built outright for the 30% subsidy offered on domestic solar.

What does that even mean ? I have a ton of sunlight all throughout the year (almost). What do I do to harness it ?

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#97

Post by fnordpiglet »

hedora wrote: post #8

This is a similar, commercially available technology: https://www.sunflarearray.com/ If Tesla Roof hadn't strung us along, we might have gone with Sun Flare. (We ended up with conventional panels instead.) Any, the difference between Sunflare isn't really explained at the beginning of the article. It sounds like the prototype is more like a stetchy piece of fabric than a roll of paper.

Strung along how?

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#98

Post by not2b »

davedx wrote: post #69
jldugger wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that China has like, no oil[0] or gas[1] at all. Their investments into renewables is kind of a life of death situation, not just for the world, but the PLA specifically, who would likely monopolize domestic oil production in any military engagement. Also worth mentioning that Beijing sits on one side of a mountain range, and the other side is arid desert. It's kind of a no brainer to drop solar panels t…

"solar doesn't make sense in many places in the US. You want somewhere dry and bright, which cuts off the pacific northwest, and most of the north*" Can you explain with numbers how you arrive at this conclusion? (Solar is extremely popular and viable in Northern Europe, so it surprises me to read it)

The Pacific Northwest is near-desert just east of the Cascades, and transmission lines could carry power to Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver BC from the dry sunny parts.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#99

Post by jillesvangurp »

osigurdson wrote: post #88

I've always thought cost and area were the most significant barriers to solar panel adoption - not weight.

Area can be cheap depending on where you go. Cost breaks down into a few components: manufacturing, transport, and installation. All three are impacted by weight.

They weigh less, so there are less raw materials involved. So you would expect that to impact production cost. Also, with flexible materials like this, they likely get produced on rolls. So machines might be a bit different and maybe run a little faster/efficient and use less energy and other resources.

As for transporting, moving something around that weighs a lot less is obviously going to be cheaper. And this sounds like it is also a lot less fragile so you can go easier on the packaging too.

Finally, for installation, not having to move around panels that weigh tens of kilos is going to be easier and quicker and also require less in terms of mounting infrastructure, roof preparation, etc. I could see this shave off some hours.

And of course the usable area improves too if you reduce weight. You could probably install this on walls even. And there are plenty of nice empty walls in most places.

So, yes, weight is a big deal.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#100

Post by jillesvangurp »

nashashmi wrote: post #74
ck2 wrote: post #23

Imagine in a decade or two a paint that as long as it's continuous, it becomes an electron pump in the sun. One electrode per side of the house or whatever structure, even roads, signs, etc. Even if it was only a few percent efficiency, the massive surface areas would be more than enough regardless of sun angle or intensity.

recycling would be a problem.

Depends on the materials. Organic solar cells already exist. You'd expect those to be biodegradable or at least easy to recycle or dispose off.
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