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Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

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Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#81

Post by jldugger »

davedx wrote: post #69
jldugger wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that China has like, no oil[0] or gas[1] at all. Their investments into renewables is kind of a life of death situation, not just for the world, but the PLA specifically, who would likely monopolize domestic oil production in any military engagement. Also worth mentioning that Beijing sits on one side of a mountain range, and the other side is arid desert. It's kind of a no brainer to drop solar panels t…

"solar doesn't make sense in many places in the US. You want somewhere dry and bright, which cuts off the pacific northwest, and most of the north*" Can you explain with numbers how you arrive at this conclusion? (Solar is extremely popular and viable in Northern Europe, so it surprises me to read it)

> Solar is extremely popular and viable in Northern Europe

popular? yes. viable? not as much. all of the contiguous US is further south than the UK. That means shorter winter days, but also incident angles are bad year round.

But dont take my word for it, check out https://globalsolaratlas.info

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#82

Post by DFHippie »

akira2501 wrote: post #79
Swenrekcah wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a purely market driven world oil would have been phased out decades ago because of all the negative externalities that the pure and perfect market would have priced in. I understand your point, I just take issue with the phrasing that subsidies for renewables are skewing the market, since in fact they are rather correcting it. Secondly because the oil industry is subsidised as well.

> In a purely market driven world oil would have been phased out decades ago because of all the negative externalities that the pure and perfect market would have priced in. People who say this don't seem to realize that it was only 70 years ago we were just stopping the use of horses and other beasts of burden to do the majority of farming, and of course, replacing them with tractors... or the impact this had on pro…

You don't need to put "externalities" in quotes as though it's a suspect concept.

It's fine to be suspicious of any entity. But it's not easy to hide externalities. Your suspicion should lead pretty directly to evidence. As it does with fossil fuels. Those who profited from fossil fuels brazenly lied about their own knowledge of their externalities, but the rest of the world could see them in real time. They weren't trying to hide the externalities as much as they were mitigating their legal exposure and improving their propaganda.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#83

Post by kube-system »

Armisael16 wrote: post #72
davedx wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"solar doesn't make sense in many places in the US. You want somewhere dry and bright, which cuts off the pacific northwest, and most of the north*" Can you explain with numbers how you arrive at this conclusion? (Solar is extremely popular and viable in Northern Europe, so it surprises me to read it)

Most of the US is in fact better for solar than most of Europe (Iberia is fairly good). However, energy prices in the US are considerably lower, so the bar for profitability is much higher. The EU also has colossal subsidies for renewables, which obviously skew the market. In a purely market-driven world Europe would not be investing in solar.

Yes, I just got a quote for a solar system here in the US, the price for the system was right around $40,000. Add in the cost of reinstallation when I need a roof replacement, and the break even is when the warranty expires.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#84

Post by Swenrekcah »

akira2501 wrote: post #79
Swenrekcah wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a purely market driven world oil would have been phased out decades ago because of all the negative externalities that the pure and perfect market would have priced in. I understand your point, I just take issue with the phrasing that subsidies for renewables are skewing the market, since in fact they are rather correcting it. Secondly because the oil industry is subsidised as well.

> In a purely market driven world oil would have been phased out decades ago because of all the negative externalities that the pure and perfect market would have priced in. People who say this don't seem to realize that it was only 70 years ago we were just stopping the use of horses and other beasts of burden to do the majority of farming, and of course, replacing them with tractors... or the impact this had on pro…

I don’t imagine the market is perfect, quite the opposite. Unless external entities like the government introduce a way for the market to take all available information (or as much as possible) into account, the decisions the market makes will be deeply flawed.

I do realise the enormous positive effects the ICE has had on growth, labour intensity and general wellbeing. But it also has bad effects and we can move past the ICE now, and in fact we could and should have a lot sooner.

Most of the emissions come from electricity generation though, so no romanticising of the ICE will save us there.

The world panicked about nuclear power 30 years ago because of a Soviet screwup but that was a mistake. Nuclear and renewables should have been our focus all the time since.

And yes I absolutely realise there are negative externalities in cobolt extractions and whatever. That’s why we need the carbon taxes and similar regulations :)

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#85

Post by nine_k »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #58
mrguyorama wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Republican party in the united states is so anti-green energy, they removed solar panels from the white house in the 80s, shortly after they were installed, just because they didn't like them. They also blamed wind turbines for the extreme grid failure in Texas last year, and it is a current talking point that "wind and solar can't ever work" and that wind turbines kill so many birds that we can't possibly ever u…

Texas is one of the reddest states yet produces significantly more wind+solar power than liberal California. Government policy is far less important than economic realities. People are self-absorbed and think their political opinions are important. The real world works more like a cowboy hat wearing power company executive saying, "Holy shucks, this solar/wind installation is going to save us more on NatGas than it c…

A (state) government policy that makes building anything at all hard will result in less of anything (including solar and wind farms) built, compared to a (state) government policy that's somehow less onerous.

Hence the difference between California and Texas.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#86

Post by kragen »

jldugger wrote: post #43
photochemsyn wrote: post #24

Monocrystalline Si solar panels have so many advantages that it's hard to get interested in anything else for home or business construction. Lifetime is measured in decades, not years; efficiency is approaching 25% while prices are dropping (only expensive multi-junction III-V types are better, currently limited to satellite power systems); and for variable surfaces, they can be manufactured as small shingles as well…

Bear in mind that China has like, no oil[0] or gas[1] at all. Their investments into renewables is kind of a life of death situation, not just for the world, but the PLA specifically, who would likely monopolize domestic oil production in any military engagement. Also worth mentioning that Beijing sits on one side of a mountain range, and the other side is arid desert. It's kind of a no brainer to drop solar panels t…

investment into renewables is a life or death situation for every country

if your energy costs 7¢ per megajoule and you are being invaded by an opponent whose energy costs 0.7¢ per megajoule you are probably going to lose

i don't understand why the capacity factor for utility-scale pv in prc is so low but evidently they did not 'drop solar panels [in the desert] and tramsmit power to the nearby megatropolis'

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#87

Post by rbanffy »

Armisael16 wrote: post #72
davedx wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"solar doesn't make sense in many places in the US. You want somewhere dry and bright, which cuts off the pacific northwest, and most of the north*" Can you explain with numbers how you arrive at this conclusion? (Solar is extremely popular and viable in Northern Europe, so it surprises me to read it)

Most of the US is in fact better for solar than most of Europe (Iberia is fairly good). However, energy prices in the US are considerably lower, so the bar for profitability is much higher. The EU also has colossal subsidies for renewables, which obviously skew the market. In a purely market-driven world Europe would not be investing in solar.

> In a purely market-driven world Europe would not be investing in solar

In a purely market-driven world, we'd already be well on our way to extinction.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#89

Post by laurencerowe »

kube-system wrote: post #83
Armisael16 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the US is in fact better for solar than most of Europe (Iberia is fairly good). However, energy prices in the US are considerably lower, so the bar for profitability is much higher. The EU also has colossal subsidies for renewables, which obviously skew the market. In a purely market-driven world Europe would not be investing in solar.

Yes, I just got a quote for a solar system here in the US, the price for the system was right around $40,000. Add in the cost of re installation when I need a roof replacement, and the break even is when the warranty expires.

Domestic rooftop solar no longer makes financial sense. Panels have gotten so cheap that installation costs now dominate. Utility scale solar can be built outright for the 30% subsidy offered on domestic solar.

Re: Paper-Thin Solar Makes Any Surface Photovoltaic

#90

Post by jldugger »

kragen wrote: post #86
jldugger wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that China has like, no oil[0] or gas[1] at all. Their investments into renewables is kind of a life of death situation, not just for the world, but the PLA specifically, who would likely monopolize domestic oil production in any military engagement. Also worth mentioning that Beijing sits on one side of a mountain range, and the other side is arid desert. It's kind of a no brainer to drop solar panels t…

investment into renewables is a life or death situation for every country if your energy costs 7¢ per megajoule and you are being invaded by an opponent whose energy costs 0.7¢ per megajoule you are probably going to lose i don't understand why the capacity factor for utility-scale pv in prc is so low but evidently they did not 'drop solar panels [in the desert] and tramsmit power to the nearby megatropolis'

> evidently they did not 'drop solar panels [in the desert] and tramsmit power to the nearby megatropolis'

I mean, I browsed the desert northeast of Beijing and found what looks like a solar installation, right next to some wind turbines. No idea how to estimate capacity from that, and without streetview to confirm it, I'm just making guesses based on how the pixels look.

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