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Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

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Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#21
post #16

Oh yeah, Monk is 100% right. Keeping time is far more important than both intonation and feel. (And intonation is more important than feel.) Young music students in the US are usually taught in a pre-conservatory style (analogous to how young students are taught in a pre-academic style). This leads to the mental prioritization of playing the correct notes, giving recitals once or twice per season, and following the m…

OMG, yes. Any conductor will tell you they'd much rather you play or sing the wrong note in time than the right note with the wrong rhythm

I was at a recital of adult piano students. "Kill me now" was my reaction when one of the students had that habit of stopping and playing every note "right" before continuing.

Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#22
post #9

Ooh, some good ones in there even for us concert band folks: > Pat your foot and sing the melody in your head when you play. I usually just tap my toes quietly within my shoe. > Don’t play the piano part, I am playing that. Don’t listen to me, I am supposed to be accompanying you! Sub piano for whatever solo or soli instruments have the spotlight. > What you don’t play can be more important than what you do play. > A…

> I usually just tap my toes quietly within my shoe

Right. The conductor will hate seeing you tap your feet. So just don't let them see.

Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#23
post #9

Ooh, some good ones in there even for us concert band folks: > Pat your foot and sing the melody in your head when you play. I usually just tap my toes quietly within my shoe. > Don’t play the piano part, I am playing that. Don’t listen to me, I am supposed to be accompanying you! Sub piano for whatever solo or soli instruments have the spotlight. > What you don’t play can be more important than what you do play. > A…

>Don’t listen to me, I am supposed to be accompanying you!

As a conductor and director in my experience this is the hardest one for many musicians to learn, and it even goes a bit against the “keep the time is #1“ rule.

As accompaniment, harmony, etc you need to understand who the lead is at any given moment and follow it. If you just keep the time robotically and don’t pay any attention you will destroy any possible magic. If you are homophonic harmony but you are out of time with the lead, it won’t be tight and may be bad (unless a loosely hinged style is what you want). The lead may be taking micro beats of time here and there with the line and you’ll want to follow this.

Even this has nuance though. Sometimes the lead might be taking time (or rushing time) and actually expect you to be keeping time, to stay in the pocket, to give him a landing zone to anchor back to once he’s decided he wants to come back in time on a cadence or a downbeat or something. And you need to know that too, as the lead goes in and out of the pocket what is his intention there?

In this way it’s beautiful how the really best music doesn’t require only experienced musicians, or even musicians experienced with each other (understand each others styles, tastes and intentions) but also requires a level of trust between them to be able to leverage those experiences in a special way. And that could be generalized to other areas of work and life

Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#24
post #16

Oh yeah, Monk is 100% right. Keeping time is far more important than both intonation and feel. (And intonation is more important than feel.) Young music students in the US are usually taught in a pre-conservatory style (analogous to how young students are taught in a pre-academic style). This leads to the mental prioritization of playing the correct notes, giving recitals once or twice per season, and following the m…

I agree with you on the vast majority of this, but I think it's a bridge too far to put intonation above feel unconditionally.

You are correct that keeping time (what an engineer would call "maintaining a common time base between transmitter and receiver") is necessary to play together with other musicians. But what musicians would call "feel" is what an engineer would call "phase modulation" -- whether a note is ahead of the beat, on the beat, or behind the beat; and by how much. Especially in Black American music (jazz, blues, soul, R&B, and a bunch of pop that's been influenced by those styles), there is a lot of crucial information there beyond what is conveyed in the "gridded" rhythms that are conveyed in Western musical notation. If you are not aware of this, you will still have problems playing with other musicians. From personal experience, it is anxiety-inducing to play with musicians who are ignorant of their beat placement and as a consequence have what an engineer would call "jitter" -- their timekeeping is correct on average, but on each given beat, they might be a little bit ahead or a little bit behind. You can play with a metronome for ages and never realize you're doing this wrong, as you're not consistently rushing or dragging, you're just inconsistent.

Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#25
I love jazz music. I've spent two years learning Jazz tunes and some theory after 20 years focusing on rock and other genres. Something I've realized is that everything was already done in Jazz. Anything you can find in modern music that you think sounds innovative was probably already done in Jazz before the 70s. These guys were really pushing the limits of music. It's sad so many of the greats died so young because of drugs and other health issues.

Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#26
post #16

Oh yeah, Monk is 100% right. Keeping time is far more important than both intonation and feel. (And intonation is more important than feel.) Young music students in the US are usually taught in a pre-conservatory style (analogous to how young students are taught in a pre-academic style). This leads to the mental prioritization of playing the correct notes, giving recitals once or twice per season, and following the m…

I agree with you on the vast majority of this, but I think it's a bridge too far to put intonation above feel unconditionally. You are correct that keeping time (what an engineer would call "maintaining a common time base between transmitter and receiver") is necessary to play together with other musicians. But what musicians would call "feel" is what an engineer would call "phase modulation" -- whether a note is ahe…

> whether a note is ahead of the beat, on the beat, or behind the beat; and by how much. Especially in Black American music (jazz, blues, soul, R&B, and a bunch of pop that's been influenced by those styles), there is a lot of crucial information there beyond what is conveyed in the "gridded" rhythms that are conveyed in Western musical notation.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I actually lump this in my head under "rhythm" rather than "feel". One of the reasons that black musicians tend to have on-average better is that they often have spent a lot of time physically dancing or playing live gigs at church/with their adult friends, and had to learn how to place notes just by hearing other people do it. This is a more effective method for training feel/rhythm than showing someone note durations on a sheet of music and telling them to figure it out themselves.

I think the way to correct the bad "feel" habits you're talking about is to play a lot with talented, on-beat musicians who will correct your playing in rehearsal. They will also assign you parts that you can handle that serve the sound of the band, rather than serving the intentions of the composer per the sheet music. Another issue that young western musicians have is that they most often play with other players at about their skill level, which stops them from being able to quickly learn good habits from better musicians.

Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#27
post #21
post #16

Oh yeah, Monk is 100% right. Keeping time is far more important than both intonation and feel. (And intonation is more important than feel.) Young music students in the US are usually taught in a pre-conservatory style (analogous to how young students are taught in a pre-academic style). This leads to the mental prioritization of playing the correct notes, giving recitals once or twice per season, and following the m…

OMG, yes. Any conductor will tell you they'd much rather you play or sing the wrong note in time than the right note with the wrong rhythm I was at a recital of adult piano students. "Kill me now" was my reaction when one of the students had that habit of stopping and playing every note "right" before continuing.

I grew up with the same habit, and sometimes could actually see the wincing in the audience during recitals. It was so disheartening. Last year I started deliberately playing incorrect notes during practicing, ceasing to play, and getting back on the melody line without losing the beat. It's improved my live playing a great deal.

Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#29

I love jazz music. I've spent two years learning Jazz tunes and some theory after 20 years focusing on rock and other genres. Something I've realized is that everything was already done in Jazz. Anything you can find in modern music that you think sounds innovative was probably already done in Jazz before the 70s. These guys were really pushing the limits of music. It's sad so many of the greats died so young because…

Jazz pushed the limits of what could be done by human performers improvising live on traditional instruments. There's still plenty of novelty left to find if you relax those constraints. Even back then, people were pushing beyond them, e.g. Conlon Nancarrow wrote piano music at the same time as Thelonious Monk, some of it inspired by jazz, but it sounds completely different because he used a machine to play things beyond human ability.

Now we have computers and digital audio workstation software, the possibilities are still greater.

Re: Thelonious Monk’s Tips for Musicians (1960)

#30
post #16

Oh yeah, Monk is 100% right. Keeping time is far more important than both intonation and feel. (And intonation is more important than feel.) Young music students in the US are usually taught in a pre-conservatory style (analogous to how young students are taught in a pre-academic style). This leads to the mental prioritization of playing the correct notes, giving recitals once or twice per season, and following the m…

My kids both went through music lessons, and I believe a lot of this "culture" is brought by hyper competitive parents. It's not inherent to the process. The Suzuki method (which is the dominant variant in the US today) starts kids playing by ear, and involves them in as much group playing as possible. You can't get in the habit of stopping, if nobody else stops.

Imposed on top of this is a culture of treating it like a contest. This is an easy trap to fall into, because the repertoire is organized by difficulty. But I quickly noticed that the most laid back parents were the ones who were performing musicians themselves. I'm a performing jazz musician so my kids have heard me play plenty of clams on the bandstand without stopping. ;-)

The parents have to get out of the habit of stopping their kids when they make a mistake. I read a comment from a famous teacher, that he doesn't stop his students when they make mistakes, because it kills their flow. Unless the mistake is repetitive. Isolated mistakes are not teachable, repetitive ones are.

My daughter's teacher had a really nice thing, an open recital at his house every Friday evening. Because it was so frequent, kids could just show up and play whatever they were working on.

There are alternatives to traditional classical teaching. In addition to their classical lessons, my family has gotten into fiddling. That's a totally different vibe. We went to a fiddle jam, and recognized one of the fiddlers from the previous night's symphony concert.

Now for my own opinionated opinions, not necessarily contrary to yours: 1) At least in classical and jazz, a player has to get over the hump and learn to play in tune at some point. In any event, intonation problems typically reveal technique problems. 2) "Feel" is not orthogonal to technique. Wherever the note belongs, your brain and body working together have to put it there. And "feel" is anything but absent from classical music -- you just have to listen harder for it because it's more subtle. You can hear it when it's too rigid.

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