Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#321

Post by lazide » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #318

lazide wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some specifics - Assuming Cp = 0.32 kJ/kg•K, which seems about right, you’re talking about 3kwh to heat up a 75kwh sized pack from -25C (-13f) to 25C (77f), or about 4% of the pack capacity. Which about lines up with my experience ‘warming up’ ICE vehicles. It’s not great fuel economy wise to do so. If you have a block heater, seems like those can be as much as 750-1500 watts. If a diesel, that block needs to get pre…

Most of the grid here was built with Marshall plan money after the war and has barely been touched since. Renovations are under way but will take another decade or so. And yes, outages are frequent.

Yeah, and some areas are remote enough it will be multiple decades.

Even phasing out propane heat is likely to take several generations (if ever).

My point was more that I don’t think it’s an engineering problem anymore. The direct problems there have been solved.

It’s more of an infrastructure/capex one, and the economic pressure to change or not is often about the economic cost of various options like the ratio of the price of a gallon of diesel to a kwh.

And it’s not looking as favorable towards ICE as it used to be.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#322

Post by 2000UltraDeluxe » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 6:17 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #321

2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the grid here was built with Marshall plan money after the war and has barely been touched since. Renovations are under way but will take another decade or so. And yes, outages are frequent.

Yeah, and some areas are remote enough it will be multiple decades. Even phasing out propane heat is likely to take several generations (if ever). My point was more that I don’t think it’s an engineering problem anymore. The direct problems there have been solved. It’s more of an infrastructure/capex one, and the economic pressure to change or not is often about the economic cost of various options like the ratio of…

Fair enough!

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#323

Post by ericvsmith » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

tantony wrote: post #197

remarkEon wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Came here to say that (am in Minnesota for Christmas holiday, where it’s currently 1°). It gets much colder than 20°F for extended periods in the Midwest. Is there just not a large enough sample of EV driving in those temperatures to extend the graph?

I have owned a Model 3 in Iowa while living in an apartment with no garage. This was at the beginning of the Covid lockdown where it stayed unused for extended periods of time. The battery was cold-soaked in temps below 20F. Whenever I drove the car, I had almost zero regen-braking, reduced acceleration and the range was decreased by about 30%. For short commutes, that would persist throughout. But whenever I went on…

> almost zero regen-braking

Are you sure this is related to the cold, and not just that the batteries were fully charged so that regen had nowhere to put the energy?

[Edited to add]: I say this because I see this in all types of weather: I live on the top of a hill, and if the car is fully charge there will be no regenerative braking when heading down the hill.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#324

Post by sbalea » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 9:42 PM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #88

I can’t decide on my next car - Live in cold village on US east coast - ICE might be going obsolete - BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded soon - feels almost like the early days of smartphones. - Gas prices are very high - Used and new car prices are unreasonably high - There’s not enough chargers to support the number of EVs being driven in my area leading to long waits. - I could charge at…

If you need a new vehicle, the you can certainly go with a quality EV. I live in NJ, it gets cold here in winter, with temps dipping in teens and single digits in Jan/Feb. Don't have a garage either. As long as you can plug your car in overnight, there are absolutely no issues. Range does drop a somewhat in winter, but as long as you're aware of it you can work around it. You don't need chargers in your area, your home will be the place where you charge the most, just make sure you have a high power outlet/wall charger installed at your home. Regular 120V outlets are not really feasible unless you're driving very little. 3d party chargers matter only when you go on road trips/vacations. That being said, maybe you can hold on to your car a couple more years, let the market cool down and EV offerings improve.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#325

Post by dwighttk » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 9:46 PM UTC

LinuxBender wrote: post #119

dwighttk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there aren’t many people driving EVs there

I'm in the Rockies, about 6300' elevation and the temp in the winter is often sub-zero with extremes being around -25F but only a few days usually. None of the locals have an EV but I have seen them on the highway going up to Yellowstone so I have not been able to ask them about range. The UPS drivers here will soon have a couple EV delivery trucks. I talk to them all the time so perhaps that will be useful data I ca…

If you know any Pepsi distributors see if you can get some numbers on the Tesla semi… ;)

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#326

Post by WirelessGigabit » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 10:23 PM UTC

rosnd wrote: post #281

WirelessGigabit wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not allowed in Europe.

s/remote start/auxiliary heater/ Fixed for EU. End result is same, ICE car warm.

It's an additional component. It adds extra weight that you're always lugging around. Engine, pipes, pump etc.

And it's weird that it is allowed in Europe, as it has more emissions than a normal engine.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210909123913.h...

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#327

Post by Reason077 » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 11:03 PM UTC

rosnd wrote: post #320

Reason077 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, but what, maybe 5% or so of gas cars are fancy enough to have a fuel-burning auxiliary heater in Europe? (not just Scandinavia) Where as most EVs have a "remote HVAC control" feature - even the pretty basic ones. And EVs, of course, will cool the cabin in summer time as well, something that an auxiliary heater can't do.

It's definitely much more than 5% of new ICE cars.

Across all of Europe? No way. No cars sold in Southern Europe have this, and afaik it's rare (at best) in the UK. In Scandinavia? Maybe.

But aren't most premium new ICE cars in Europe now (mild) hybrids anyway? Why not use the big 48V battery to power an electric aux heater? Surely way cheaper, simpler, and less dangerous?

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#328

Post by thesmok » Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 10:14 AM UTC

rosnd wrote: post #179

wil421 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people park in garages where it’s not an option.

My gas powered Mercedes heats up just fine without starting the engine. This has been a common feature for like ... idk, 20 years? I think even the 80s W214 had this option, although that used a separate burner system instead of batteries.

It still burns fuel and exhausts CO2 doing that.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#329

Post by mrexroad » Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 5:05 PM UTC

Unklejoe wrote: post #60

mrexroad wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> thermally insulate the battery enclosure to try to retain that heat as long as possible Might pose a problem during heavy discharge with 105F ambient temps?

You could use heat exchangers (coolant) with a thermostat. It would stay closed until the batteries reached a certain temperature then it would dissipate heat through a radiator. Just like a coolant system on an ICE car.

They do already :) Fwiw, Tesla already utilizes active (liquid) cooling as passive (air) cooling is insufficient even without insulation; further, air+liquid cooling is still not enough so refrigeration and heat exchanger is also used to remove thermal energy. Removing passive cooling and adding insulation would require refrigerated cooling to be used for a far greater percentage of time (more weight, more energy). It’s simply easier to heat the batts in cold than it is to cool them. Not to mention there’s worst case failure modes—too cold = dead batt, too hot = combustion.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#330

Post by thinking4real » Tue, Dec 20, 2022, 10:49 PM UTC

PaulBGD_ wrote: post #103

thinking4real wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone’s repeating they find this strange. Is it really strange? I’ve been excited for EVs all my life. But there’s a certain level of propaganda that’s come with them. Explicitly talking about their downsides seems to be taboo. Like you’ll get downvoated or banned on many social media platforms for doing it.

I think it’s because most people who are pro electric understand their downsides, and usually the downsides are presented as dismissal (eg why buy an electric, you have to stop when you’re traveling cross country.) It’s kind of a boring topic unless there’s something new to discuss.

I think you’re lying to yourself because you’re an EV fan.

You have to consider what the pushers are saying and if there’s sufficient pushback when they’re misaligned.

Currently that doesn’t happen. Currently you face everything up to deplatforming for speaking against the narrative that EVs are the one true solution.