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Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

recurrentauto.com

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Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#191

Post by dawnerd »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #161
dawnerd wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people own EVs in extreme cold and get by just fine. Look at Norway, EVs are incredibly common there and they’re regularly driven to the far north without much fanfare. https://www.youtube.com/@bjornnyland/videos

Populated Norway actually isn’t that cold. The average high/low for their coldest month is 0C/-5C. In contrast Seattle is 8C/2C. I’m curious how EVs are doing in a city like Harbin where it is -24C/-13C.

That’s why I linked to Bjorn’s channel. He regularly tests extreme cold on EVs (and even camps in them)

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#192

Post by WirelessGigabit »

zackkitzmiller wrote: post #137
Reason077 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block…

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

That's not allowed in Europe.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#193

Post by noahtallen »

mkhpalm wrote: post #190
castratikron wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of ICE cars won't even start at 40 below. Those cases should count as zero mile range

To be fair, it typically costs about $50 for a block heater which allows you to start below 40 degrees in an ICE. Whats the solution for EV?

I believe they “just work.” Electric motors don’t stop working at low temps. I think it’s mostly just range that’s impacted since EVs can’t use the inefficient part of an ICE (e.g. energy produced by gas not captured by the powertrain) for heat, so they have to run heat pumps. (Along with battery chemistry not working as well in low temps)

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#194

Post by karmelapple »

Someone1234 wrote: post #43
cameronh90 wrote: post #30

My fuel economy drops about 20% on my petrol car in cold weather city driving. I don't know what causes the difference, perhaps waiting for the car to warm up and windows to defrost.

EVs upsides and downsides should be considered without it needing to be a comparison to ICE. But, yes, running the heater will use fuel. In this case EVs with "250 miles" range are losing 30%~ of that range for three months of the year and a further 20% over the first three years of their life, making them reliably closer to a 140-mile vehicle. People who are planning round-trip travel or commuting need to know this…

Is it mocking, or just encouraging realistic expectations around your travel needs? I’ve heard many people say an EV won’t work for them, yet their total daily commute is nowhere close to the capacity. And for many of them, even a 110V outlet at home would get them around 40 miles overnight once they’re home (depending on the make/model specifics), and most folks I know are barely driving more than that as a daily driver.

I totally understand wanting to have long distance range in an EV. But even with the cold, for most commutes, anything with that 150-mile-in-winter is range for the majority of trips.

But totally understood it’s a case by case basis. I have family who drove over 100 miles round trip for their daily commute in North Dakota. Those use cases exist, but I think many people without such extreme daily distances are thinking about their daily distance needs in unrealistic ways. I hope this isn’t what you’d consider mocking :)

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#195

Post by zoklet-enjoyer »

nightski wrote: post #162
LeoPanthera wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big difference is that while an EV is sitting plugged in, it can heat itself from wall power, rather than burning gas to do it.

It's called a block heater and they have been in use for many decades in cold climates.

Block heaters don't heat the cab, so it's still uncomfortable

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#196

Post by drewg123 »

pitaj wrote: post #183
drewg123 wrote: post #176

My Tesla Model X 100D looses 25-40% of range in the winter (and by "winter, I mean 20-50F, as I live in Virginia). This is partially due to resistance heating, and the range is better if you're somehow able to live with keeping the heat off and using just the steering wheel and seat heaters. However, one thing I've never gotten used to is just how cold my feet get in the winter in this car. Even with the heat at full…

Not having enough hot air on the feet is a common issue across cars in general, from my experience.

This car takes it to an entirely new level. I've never had to use heated socks in any other car I've owned, including horrible old 80s economy cars I owned in Buffalo, NY.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#197

Post by tantony »

remarkEon wrote: post #41
crazygringo wrote: post #16

I find it strange that the charts only go down to 20°F, when for example at the moment I write this comment, it's -5°F (-21°C) in Bismarck, North Dakota. And sub-zero Fahrenheit temperatures are pretty common in the winter across the Northeast, especially at night. "Normal" driving conditions extend way below just 20°F.

Came here to say that (am in Minnesota for Christmas holiday, where it’s currently 1°). It gets much colder than 20°F for extended periods in the Midwest. Is there just not a large enough sample of EV driving in those temperatures to extend the graph?

I have owned a Model 3 in Iowa while living in an apartment with no garage. This was at the beginning of the Covid lockdown where it stayed unused for extended periods of time. The battery was cold-soaked in temps below 20F. Whenever I drove the car, I had almost zero regen-braking, reduced acceleration and the range was decreased by about 30%. For short commutes, that would persist throughout. But whenever I went on longer trips, a one hour drive would get it back to its original performance. The range would stay a bit lower due to higher energy use (~330 Wh/mi instead of 240 Wh/mi in the summer). The navigation would account for this when planning trips and also pre-condition the batteries prior to going to superchargers. On average it added maybe one extra charging stop during road-trips.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#198

Post by jjtheblunt »

galangalalgol wrote: post #163
jjtheblunt wrote: post #147

As a 7+ year driver of a pure electric BMW i3, not the range extender version, in a HOT climate its last four years, far more overlooked is the degeneration of battery capacity when run and charged in heat. I mean 40+ Celsius summers have been brutal on the battery which is a cooled pack. Possibly this has improved a ton since our i3 was the original model year, and BMW replaced the original pack and sent it back to…

The nissan leaf demonstrated this problem in Phoenix immediately upon release, it is a known thing. Tesla seems to take yhe cooling loop very seriously. The batteries in the early model s had some issues but after that they seem to asymptote at 20% range loss and stay there. At least so far. I don't know who else takes cooling that seriously. I'd look for liquid cooling but also phase change hooked into the ac system…

Yep, our i3 battery is cooled as a pack, but degraded fast north of Phoenix (higher altitude, still hot as hell for 4 months, super nice for 8 months including freezing and occasional snow). Turned out the cooling system for the original pack broke, but it was unclear if that happened in Arizona or was a one-off quirk, so the degradation of the original pack happened for sure in Arizona.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#199

Post by lazide »

jmclnx wrote: post #65
Someone1234 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EVs upsides and downsides should be considered without it needing to be a comparison to ICE. But, yes, running the heater will use fuel. In this case EVs with "250 miles" range are losing 30%~ of that range for three months of the year and a further 20% over the first three years of their life, making them reliably closer to a 140-mile vehicle. People who are planning round-trip travel or commuting need to know this…

> for three months Many places in the US, it is more than 3 months :)

In northern Michigan, it was more like 3 months of not bad weather, hah.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#200

Post by orasis »

crazygringo wrote: post #16

I find it strange that the charts only go down to 20°F, when for example at the moment I write this comment, it's -5°F (-21°C) in Bismarck, North Dakota. And sub-zero Fahrenheit temperatures are pretty common in the winter across the Northeast, especially at night. "Normal" driving conditions extend way below just 20°F.

Two winters ago I tried to drive my model 3 across North Dakota - never will I do that again. Range was cut in half and I had to stop at every single supercharger.
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