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Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

recurrentauto.com

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Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#301

Post by rosnd »

Reason077 wrote: post #294
rosnd wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature.

> "Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature." Remote cabin heating in a gas car requires a "remote start" feature, which is illegal in many European countries - particularly Germany. This is not a common feature in Europe, except in EVs.

No it doesn't. It just requires an auxiliary heater, which has been a common feature in cars sold in Europe for at least 20 years. It's a feature you can find in cars sold during the 80s, like the W214.

> This is not a common feature in Europe, except in EVs.

It's a common feature in fancy cars and has been so for ages. Most EVs definitely fall into the fancy car category.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#302

Post by Gud »

Reason077 wrote: post #294
rosnd wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature.

> "Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature." Remote cabin heating in a gas car requires a "remote start" feature, which is illegal in many European countries - particularly Germany. This is not a common feature in Europe, except in EVs.

Not sure where you’re getting this info from, but it’s wrong. 1) remote start is not required 2) auxiliary heaters are very common

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#303

Post by nikau »

anecdotal1 wrote: post #220
zackkitzmiller wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

Audis don't come with it because it's illegal in Germany according to my old neighbor so he always had to install an aftermarket one...

If its cold enough in Europe they install dedicated heaters rather than idling the engine - they install a small heating device and pump plumbed into the cooling loop and to the petrol or diesel supply.

When it runs it heats the coolant and circulates it through the engine block.

Newer ones can also talk to the ECU to open the heater core valve and fans to pre heat the interior too. They also can use either SMS messages or an app to turn on remotely if you don't want to use fixed timers.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#304

Post by rosnd »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #278
SoftTalker wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're driving around in subzero weather without a coat, gloves, and preferably a few blankets in the car, you're asking for more trouble than I am.

I don't like driving on icy roads with gloves on, I feel like I have less control of the car

You don't need to wear the gloves, you want to have them in the car in case you end up in an accident and your car is rendered unable to keep you warm.

Essential safety equipment while driving in the cold.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#305

Post by [deleted] »

wazoox wrote: post #129
api wrote: post #29

The Leaf has a bad reputation for this but this shows it’s toward the middle of the pack. I have one and this matches my experience. Of course I have a 2022 and this looks at later models. Maybe older models were a lot worse. They’ve changed up the battery chemistry to be more tolerant of a wider temperature range I think.

Yes old Leafs are notorious for terrible battery management. The battery overheated on long, rapid trips in summer and gave terrible charge times, too.

[deleted]

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#306

Post by mdorazio »

chmod775 wrote: post #152
mdorazio wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of Americans do not live in areas that get below 20F average for extended periods of time. Your particular use case is atypical, especially for EV buyers, so it isn't shown.

> Your particular use case is atypical Norwegians alone account for ~5-10% of Tesla's global sales in recent years. I don't think it's far fetched to assume that at least one tenth of all Tesla vehicles (and other EV vehicles in that price class) are driven in areas that do routinely experience longer periods below that temperature. It's likely much more than that, because in Europe you can easily find these temperat…

Did you even bother to look up average temperatures by month in the populous parts of Norway before posting this? It doesn't get that cold: https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/norway/oslo

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#307

Post by mdorazio »

Teever wrote: post #130
mdorazio wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of Americans do not live in areas that get below 20F average for extended periods of time. Your particular use case is atypical, especially for EV buyers, so it isn't shown.

As a Canadian I guess data from events that Americans rarely experience isn't really that useful or interesting.

If you want data on outside-the-normal situations, you shouldn't expect it to come from blogs or news posts targeted at average users. Here's a more technical blog with some data on lower temps based on telematics driving data: https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-range/

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#308

Post by lazide »

2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #300
lazide wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) the batteries are insulated 2) you don’t need to keep them warm 24/7, just above freezing when charging them or and/or when you want more efficiency or maximum power (like a longer trip, or midway through a drive). ICE engines are quite inefficient when ‘cold’ (and diesel may refuse to run at all), this isn’t a new problem. The batteries don’t need to be warm by human standards, and the vehicle will still work eve…

How much energy does it take to heat a battery pack from -30c to 1c? ICE engines definitely have their own set of cold-related issues, but I can't imagine heating a 150 kg engine block would require the same amounts of energy required to heat 500 kgs of battery twice (charging and before driving). Mind you, I'm not arguing against EV's or anything; I'm just saying it sounds like there's an engineering problem that ne…

Nope. It isn’t that much energy compared to losses in ICE engines/existing inefficiencies.

Feel free to do the energy calcs - there is no engineering challenge here for EVs that is currently unsolved.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#309

Post by 2000UltraDeluxe »

lazide wrote: post #308
2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much energy does it take to heat a battery pack from -30c to 1c? ICE engines definitely have their own set of cold-related issues, but I can't imagine heating a 150 kg engine block would require the same amounts of energy required to heat 500 kgs of battery twice (charging and before driving). Mind you, I'm not arguing against EV's or anything; I'm just saying it sounds like there's an engineering problem that ne…

Nope. It isn’t that much energy compared to losses in ICE engines/existing inefficiencies. Feel free to do the energy calcs - there is no engineering challenge here for EVs that is currently unsolved.

I prefer practical tests. Right now, however, the authorities here encourage people to avoid using electric pre-heaters in order to save electricity, so I'll take your word for it. :)

Ideally, things like this wouldn't be a problem, but where I live EV's is simply not an option during winter. Charging from a regular 240V/16A outlet takes too long, the nearest proper charging station is over 25km away, and the grid out here won't handle the load of everyone getting proper chargers at home. Adding additional load to heat batteries of thousands of cars probably won't be a viable option until the grid has been modernized.

Luckily, this shouldn't be a problem in warmer, more densly populated areas anyway. Better to roll out EV's where it's viable, and sort out the fringe cases later.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#310

Post by crazygringo »

Epa095 wrote: post #208
crazygringo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly. That's a bizarre thing to say when to dress properly, you need to know the wind chill. If it's 25°F out no wind, vs. 25°F out but it's 5°F with wind chill, that's an entire additional layer I need to put on during my morning walk. Wind chill is a very accurate measure for judging what to wear. How do you think it's not ac…

But if you only know the windchill temperature, how do you dress? If it is 10f with wind chill, do you prep for wind or not? I want to know temperature and windspeed, and then I know how many layers of wool I need (from the temperature) and how windproof I need to dress (from the windspeed).

You dress for the wind chill. I'm actually having trouble understanding your question because I can't think of any circumstance where you wouldn't.

I don't care about the wind speed as a separate number because it's useless to me except in how much it converts to wind chill, since I'm not going outside to fly a kite.

Perhaps I simply don't understand the concept of dressing to be windproof or not. Virtually all winter outerwear is "windproof" enough. People aren't usually going outside for an extended period of time in a cable-knit sweater as their outer layer.

Also -- you do understand that the wind still makes you colder regardless of how windproof your clothing is?

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