Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#141

Post by notdonspaulding » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #122

dkqmduems wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air velocity certainly impacts heat transfer.

The air velocity as measured relative to a parked car is not relevant to EV range. When the vehicle is moving the relative air velocity is far different than what it is when parked.

Doesn't the range of an EV drop as the heating load of the cabin of an EV increases?

And doesn't the heating load of the cabin increase as the air velocity over all of its metal and glass surfaces increases? Isn't the shell of the car essentially a giant heatsink with a 70mph relative wind moving across it?

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#142

Post by pengaru » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

LinuxBender wrote: post #124

castratikron wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of ICE cars won't even start at 40 below. Those cases should count as zero mile range

My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps , 2 heat-lamps above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds and they discovered my heat lamps.

> My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps, 2 heat-lamps above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds and they discovered my heat lamps.

The only downside? The entire comment constitutes a list of down sides...

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#143

Post by wil421 » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:41 PM UTC

zackkitzmiller wrote: post #137

Reason077 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block…

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

Lots of people park in garages where it’s not an option.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#144

Post by jcampbell1 » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:42 PM UTC

wolfram74 wrote: post #78

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your car doesn't feel wind chill. I drive an EV in Canadian winter all the time. Not at all an issue. Range loss is a thing but it's not like the car stops working. In fact it starts more reliably and heats up more quickly for me. And I start mine remotely while it's still plugged in, so the cabin is warm and ready to go without wasting battery energy. And can do this safely in the garage without concerns of carbon m…

Might be more accurate to describe it as cars generate more windchill from driving than the weather station is likely to experience from wind?

Wind chill is because your body heat makes a bubble of warm air which the wind blows away. When you have a full body suit and helmet, wind chill doesn’t matter.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#145

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

Teever wrote: post #130

mdorazio wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of Americans do not live in areas that get below 20F average for extended periods of time. Your particular use case is atypical, especially for EV buyers, so it isn't shown.

As a Canadian I guess data from events that Americans rarely experience isn't really that useful or interesting.

Northern Minnesota and North Dakota are pretty cold, not to mention parts of Alaska.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#146

Post by iancmceachern » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:45 PM UTC

zackkitzmiller wrote: post #137

Reason077 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block…

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

Replying to the comment below about garages. One can simply open the garage door, also remotely. Step 1, open garage door remotely, step 2, start car remotely.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#147

Post by jjtheblunt » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:45 PM UTC

As a 7+ year driver of a pure electric BMW i3, not the range extender version, in a HOT climate its last four years, far more overlooked is the degeneration of battery capacity when run and charged in heat.

I mean 40+ Celsius summers have been brutal on the battery which is a cooled pack. Possibly this has improved a ton since our i3 was the original model year, and BMW replaced the original pack and sent it back to Germany for analysis, consistent with the i3 being an experiment by design.

It’s made me curious if this is purposefully overlooked by the EV bandwagon.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#148

Post by Tagbert » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:46 PM UTC

51Cards wrote: post #5

JKCalhoun wrote: post #2

Do EV's keep their batteries warm electrically? I know some RV LiPo batteries have integrated heaters to keep the batteries from going below freezing. I suspect that's an acceptable tradeoff in cold climates. Ideally you would keep the battery warm while charging since it's more or less free power when tethered, and thermally insulate the battery enclosure to try to retain that heat as long as possible.

I wonder though if there would have to be a balance, as you wouldn't want it to over-heat when charging during an Arizona summer.

Most EVs will both heat and cool their batteries as needed when plugged in to maintain a healthy temperature.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#149

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

castratikron wrote: post #61

donatj wrote: post #42

As a Minnesotan with an unheated detached garage, I’d be very interested to know about -40°F performance. We get a couple of those days every year. I have been looking at my next car potentially being an EV and am really curious about the extremes.

A lot of ICE cars won't even start at 40 below. Those cases should count as zero mile range

Anyone who is trying to start an ICE at -40 (C or F, they are the same at that temp), will have it plugged in with a block heater. Or if in Russia they’ll have an insulated jacket for the car.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#150

Post by LinuxBender » Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

pengaru wrote: post #142

LinuxBender wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps , 2 heat-lamps above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds and they discovered my heat lamps.

> My old vehicle gets really grumpy at -10F. I use an oil pan heater, a battery maintainer 1.5 amps, 2 heat-lamps above the engine and fuel additives heat, seafoam that keep it running. The only downside is that I feed all the local birds and they discovered my heat lamps. The only downside? The entire comment constitutes a list of down sides...

Perhaps. Not for me really. I would be using seafoam anyway as the heads on my engine have a manufacturer defect that causes sludge so I have to change the oil often. I use seafoam in both the fuel and oil. Electricity here is 11 cents per KwH so I am ok with the heating devices as that is significantly less power than an EV even if I factor in fuel costs. Once I finish my solar setup the power becomes moot.

The only thing that bothers me is that when I lift the hood to remove the heat lamps, a bird may fly out and when they go from 80F to -10F they can go into shock. They stand next to me for a minute or two and then fly away probably out of sheer boredom of listening to me.