Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water • Hacker News Board

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#41

Post by OkayPhysicist » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:15 AM UTC

quesera wrote: post #25

ancapsfascists wrote: post #16

Federal lawmakers need to get over the history of water rights here. The system was built on assumptions that just don't hold (more water was apportioned than ever flows). You can give each state an amount and let them figure it out, or take all existing rights and re allocate them federally. But it needs to happen, and urgently. "But people will lose their income!" - Thats a symptom of requiring these people to work…

Sure, that's the easy answer. But you must have a legal framework in which to do so. Otherwise, what do you have?

The legal framework is the intersection of eminent domain and Congress's constitutional power to regulate interstate disputes and commerce. Compared to just about everything else the federal government does, this may be the most within its legal powers.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#42

Post by smcl » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:17 AM UTC

ViViDboarder wrote: post #31

sammalloy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only real solution is that we consumers consume less, and probably spend more for the same products, period. I couldn’t disagree more. We need more regulation and taxation, and the real cost of the externalities added to the end product. The public is subsidizing and paying for private industry to pollute and use resources without accountability. That needs to end. The idea that the problem is solely due to per…

It doesn’t look like you disagree to me. The result of such taxes or regulations is less and more expensive consumption.

I read that the original comment was laying the blame at the feet of individual consumer choices - implying that if people simply bought/consumed less of … whatever is causing the Colorado river to be depleted then things would fix themselves. And the reply is saying that there need to be explicit regulations to cause this, presumably because people have really no way to know the what environmental impact each dollar they spend has and where.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#43

Post by mongol » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:18 AM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #39

QuantumGood wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI has long-term challenges in that organizations will try everything they can to siphon off the money ("rent seeking") until they succeed. UBI needs to deal with this reality to succeed even in the medium term.

I've also never seen anyone address the high chance that post UBI the #1 issue for every politician will become "I will raise the UBI" and if they don't their opposition will. How will we deal with an ever increasing UBI and where will that every increasing source of money come from?

Yes I don't think UBI is stable, politically. It will be a platform to make further promises from.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#44

Post by gremlinsinc » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:18 AM UTC

QuantumGood wrote: post #34

andrei_says_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, UBI is often the cheapest and most efficient way to prop people out of poverty and (surprised?) to support their ambitions in education, starting business etc.

UBI has long-term challenges in that organizations will try everything they can to siphon off the money ("rent seeking") until they succeed. UBI needs to deal with this reality to succeed even in the medium term.

Land Value Tax is probably the best way, the LTV can be tied to rent, so that if your rent is lower than the average in your area then your LTV overall goes down, etc. LVT can also go up based on how much is NEEDED to ensure everybody can afford a roof, no matter which part of the country they live in, and it should be more focused I think on just giving a set amount based on rent costs in your area, because the costs of living vary considerably, but people born/raised in SF shouldn't be forced to move to detroit just because it's cheaper when all their friends/family live back in SF.

People need to get over the ... but but X got more than me.... if you're worried about that then move to SF and you'll get as much as they get, because it all goes to landlords anyways.

Also much bigger restrictions on housing is needed with an airbnb or hospitality tax for any short-term rentals. Something that makes it almost worth just converting to a long-term instead.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#45

Post by smcl » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:19 AM UTC

landemva wrote: post #32

imchillyb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch 2-3 episodes of 'How it's Made' and you can see how much water use is industrial. Add the industrial and cattle together and one can quickly see that it's not humans that are consuming the vast majority of potable water, but companies and industry that are depleting what's available for the rest of us.

Is the chip industry in these metrics? Big Intel plant being built in Ohio on land which had been farms. https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2022/06/30/intel-i... "The average semiconductor fab uses somewhere between 2 million and 4 million gallons of water per day"

Aren’t many of these fabs self-contained - ie they “use” a lot but treat and then re-use it

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#46

Post by woooooo » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:21 AM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #37

ancapsfascists wrote: post #16

Federal lawmakers need to get over the history of water rights here. The system was built on assumptions that just don't hold (more water was apportioned than ever flows). You can give each state an amount and let them figure it out, or take all existing rights and re allocate them federally. But it needs to happen, and urgently. "But people will lose their income!" - Thats a symptom of requiring these people to work…

Quoted post unavailable.

I'd love to see the reasoning where the California government, rather than prohibitive energy cost, is why we don't have privately bootstrapped desalination at a scale to replace the Colorado river.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#47

Post by leoh » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:21 AM UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#48

Post by 0xB31B1B » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:22 AM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #38

insane_dreamer wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Irrigation of cattle feed crops is the single largest consumptive user ... 55 percent in the Colorado River basin. That's a pretty shocking statistic. Seems like the most logical place to cut despite impact on dairy/cattle production.

You know there is all kinds of talk about civil war over politics like guns, or abortion, etc. The one thing that will cause a civil war is if you take away American's access to beef. Good luck trying to do that

a huge portion of the alfalfa being irrigated isn't even used to feed american beef. The plants are literally sent to saudi arabia to feed cows there. You could entirely fix the agricultural use of water if you priced it more accurately. There is enough water to grow all the food we need and more, its just priced in a way that encourages the agricultural landlords who own the water rights to waste it because it is essentially costless to the individual rights holders. Price the water better and they will build conservation methods without lowering output.

(https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/water-wars/saudi-a....)

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#49

Post by hakfoo » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:22 AM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #39

QuantumGood wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI has long-term challenges in that organizations will try everything they can to siphon off the money ("rent seeking") until they succeed. UBI needs to deal with this reality to succeed even in the medium term.

I've also never seen anyone address the high chance that post UBI the #1 issue for every politician will become "I will raise the UBI" and if they don't their opposition will. How will we deal with an ever increasing UBI and where will that every increasing source of money come from?

I think the solution is to both problems is that you "de-dollarize" major parts of the economy.

Instead of UBI as a bag of dollars, which landlords and merchants will immediately seek to plunder, you deliver highly-subsidized food, shelter, and rich public services. This is much harder to capture, and also has less of a ratchet factor.

Consider, for example, a universal health care component. The interest in more services and coverage wanes once it reaches a level of "good enough for most people." There may be some niche voters pulled in by "we'll also cover leeches", but most people will find those arguments uncompelling.

In the worst case, benefits do escalate, and you end up with more and more economic activity under government control, either as a direct UBI delivery system, or through ever growing tax rates to finance the subsidized programs. Which in and of itself may not be so bad. I know the entrpeneurship/free markets/self-directed mindset is very big in this community, but if the goal is maximizing quality-of-life metrics, this might be a viable way to deliver it. Ideally, we're all healthy, securely housed, and well fed, and our cultural-economic question becomes "how much of a discretionary hobby budget is $job_title worth?"

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#50

Post by leoh » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:22 AM UTC

ancorevard wrote: post #28

What water infrastructure has California invested in the last decade? As far as I can tell, all that CA Gov has done is to prohibit any desalination plants from getting built.

Yeah, it's not a good look, especially since California is the only state that is adjacent to the ocean. Not only that, renewables like solar are perfect for desalination as you don't really need one of these systems to be running around the clock.