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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#371

Post by emmelaich »

wpietri wrote: post #361
danhak wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about my position seems insincere to you? You see no philosophical difference between the government mandating vaccination records for schools and public institutions like the military vs. them mandating vaccination records for private establishments such as gyms, irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those establishments? Should the government have the right to mandate vaccination records for entry to a p…

The government has the right (and I'd argue, the duty) to quarantine people with diseases that are both contagious and dangerous if that's the best way to keep them from harming others. More details here: https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantin...

AIDS/HIV sufferers would like a word with you.

Speaking of which, Fauci's early statements on AIDS in the initial outbreak were interesting.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#372

Post by nyolfen »

CharlesW wrote: post #165
nyolfen wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the more interesting unaddressed question is, for whom ? i am a young-ish healthy person, i have basically no risk of ending up in the hospital for covid. what is the risk tradeoff for people similar to me, rather than an abstraction of the entire population? what is the risk tradeoff for a young child, who effectively has zero risk of serious covid?

> what is the risk tradeoff for a young child, who effectively has zero risk of serious covid? This is only true if you consider death the only "serious" outcome. Around 25% of children and adolescents who get COVID-19 will get "long COVID", with long-term effects we've just begun to understand. Plenty of "young-ish healthy people" have suffered debilitating effects.

surprisingly high! how many of those children were vaccinated?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#373

Post by phtrivier »

westmeal wrote: post #268
bb88 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the Musk takeover, conspiracy theorists on $8Chan have talked about Grant Wahl dying suddenly because of the "clot shot". Then we find out he died of a ruptured aortic aneurysm. Then people still refuse to believe it because it doesn't fit their narrative they're pushing. And anyone who dies suddenly must have died because of the vaccine. https://twitter.com/DiedSuddenly_/status/1603103342481342465 This killed…

People will believe whatever they want to believe, just let them stew.

Unfortunately, some of them don't stew in silence - and consider anyone who got vaccinated with exactly the same contempt as you do.

Which is all fun and games until you have to, you know, _live_ with them in the real world because they're your family and / or loved ones ?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#374

Post by gamacodre »

danhak wrote: post #213
gamacodre wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has bugged me since the beginning of this mess. It ought to be possible to say "Hey this looks kind of funny, could the vaccines be having weird effects in this .0000001% of the population?" without daggers coming out all around. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that "The SARS-Cov-2 vaccines occasionally cause health problems" and "Almost everyone should get vaccinated/boosted" are both entirely true statemen…

The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People h…

> ...does not mean the government should coerce everyone...

Here you're presuming that the government's role in a pandemic is to wring their hands and issue PSA's. That might be what some folks want them to do these days, but when the legal foundations of public health policy were laid the government was expected to do quite a bit more.

> People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies.

This might be your opinion, but the majority of your fellow citizens disagree with you. Try asking them about drug use, abortion, suicide, and other "purely personal" matters.

> People have the right to make the wrong choice.

Many wrong choices come with severe state-imposed consequences. We in the US long ago delegated to our elected representatives the authority to force some choices onto individuals, including in a health emergency. We are of course vigorously debating whether they used that authority wisely this time, but it was theirs to use.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#375

Post by TrispusAttucks »

Remember that time when everyone called you a conspiracy theorist if you mentioned that mRNA vaccines were inducing myocarditis in some individuals.

Remember how they've been wrong about everything. Trust your instincts. Ignore propagandabots.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#376

Post by lamontcg »

koolba wrote: post #336
lamontcg wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a highly specious argument that the unvaccinated were putting other people at significant risk. The unvaccinated were filling up the hospitals which was putting other people at risk. Your right to gamble with your health ends when you expect to be able to get treatment if the gamble comes out badly.

> The unvaccinated were filling up the hospitals which was putting other people at risk. > Your right to gamble with your health ends when you expect to be able to get treatment if the gamble comes out badly. My right to choose my own treatment outweighs any right you have to feel safer. That includes you feeling safe that the local hospital system will not be at capacity if you have to be admitted. It’s no different…

> chain smokers, alcoholics, or morbidly obese people clogging the medical system.

That's the normal load and it is scaled for it[*].

COVID is like a DDoS.

And there is no elastic cloud scaling for nurses, you can't just turn up more instances from a ready pool.

[*] Well maybe not any more, and lets not get into a discussion of the for-profit health care system.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#377

Post by gregcrv »

nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

Has there been any plan to compensate victims of the vaccines? either deaths or heart inflammation or other side effects? Any plan to approve and understand vaccine's effects should also come with proper system to compensate and acknowledge the risks.. But I feel that this has been avoided from the start to remove any liability.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#378

Post by Gibbon1 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #125
hammock wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The study also states: > In general, a causal link between myocarditis and anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination is supported by several considerations: (A) a close temporal relation to vaccination; all cases were found dead within one week after vaccination, (B) absence of any other significant pre-existing heart disease, especially ischaemic heart disease or cardiomyopathy, (C) negative testing for potential myocarditis-caus…

> In general, a causal link between myocarditis and anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination is supported by several considerations: (A) a close temporal relation to vaccination; all cases were found dead within one week after vaccination... > Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. This is a weird way of demonstrating a link. They picked…

The two things that stand out to me.

From published articles in the JAMA; vaccination related myocarditis in young men has much lower mortality and morbidity than from other causes. So were really talking about two different things here.

The second is rates of myocarditis after vaccination and the population base rate aren't the same thing either. The base rate one assumes includes cases triggered by something. So the base rate incorporates the rate of triggering events. So these rates are also not the same thing.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#379

Post by t0bia_s »

nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

There is a lot of studies on this topic. Somehow not covered in media. Which makes me even more curious.

Gill J.R. et al: Autopsy Histopathologic Cardiac Findings in 2 Adolescents Following the Second COVID-19 Vaccine Dose, Arch Pathol Lab Med (2022) 146 (8):925-929 https://meridian.allenpress.com/aplm/article/146/8/925/47778...

Risks of myocarditis, pericarditis, and cardiac arrhythmias associated with COVID-19 vaccination or SARS-CoV-2 infectionhttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0#Aff1

Vaccine-Associated Myo/Pericarditis in Adolescents: A Stratified Risk-Benefit Analysis https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13759

Schauer J. et al: Persistent Cardiac Magnetic Resonance Imaging Finfings in a Cohort of Adolescents with Post-Coronavirus Disease 2019 mRNA Vaccine Myopericarditis, The Journal of Pediatrics, March 25, 2022 https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(22)00282-7/fulltext

Chua G.T.et al: Epidemiology of Acute Myocarditis/Pericarditis in Hong Kong Adolescents Following Comirnaty Vaccination, Clin Infect Dis 2022, Sep 10. 75(4):673-681 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/

Le Vu S.et al: Age and sex-specific risks of myokarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines, Nat Commun, 2022, 13:3633, 25 Jun 2022 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9233673/

Goddard K.et al: Risk of myokarditis and pericarditis following BT162b2 and mRNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccination, Vaccine 2022, Aug 19, 40(35): 5153-5159 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9273527/

https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against...

Bardosh K.et al: COVID-19 Vaccine Boosters for Young Adults: A Risk-Benefit Assessment and Five Ethical Arguments against Mandates at Universities, 12 Sep 2022, preprint https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4206070

Oster M.E. et al: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based COVID-19 Vaccination in the US From December 2020 to August 2021, JAMA 2022,327(4):331-340, 25 Jan 2022 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346

Lai F.T. et al: Carditis After COVID-19 Vaccination With a Messenger RNA Vaccine and an Inactivated Virus Vaccine, Ann Int Med, March 2022 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M21-3700?rfr_da...

Massari M. et al: Postmarketing active surveillance of myokarditis and pericarditis following vaccination with COVID-19 mRNA vaccines in persons aged 12 to 39 years in Italy: A multi-database, self-controlled case series study, Plos Medicine, July 2022 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/

SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination and Myocarditis in a Nordic Cohort Study of 23 Million Residents https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...

Age and sex-specific risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-31401-5

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#380

Post by emmelaich »

bena wrote: post #192
mrtksn wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This paper doesn't claim that mRNA vaccines are dangerous, it investigates through autopsy 35 people in a region of Germany who died within 20 days of vaccination and only 5 of the deaths are found to show myocarditis of which only 3 somewhat might be attributed to the vaccine. This is not an expose of big Pharma or anything like that, I don't know why the HN comments are acting as if this is some kind of research su…

Tell that to this guy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34004500 He is acting like it's support of anti-vaxxer claims. And it is why these articles get shared. Because they contain a very slight, practically negligible affirmation of the smallest portion of their claims. And that, in their eyes, is enough to proclaim victory.

You're inferring a lot from a someone's brief summary of the paper under discussion.

If you disagree with the summary, maybe address it?

I despise anti-vaxxer lunatics, I still found that comment interesting.

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