Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination • Hacker News Board

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#201

Post by brianshaler » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #70

librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

> but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of compli…

> let's say 0.25 or so

Where did you get this data?

> Remember, COVID hasn't been shown to be particularly dangerous to young people...

What are the top 3 leading causes of health-related deaths in your choice of demographic (15-24? 25-49?) in your choice of 2020 or 2021?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#202

Post by gfodor » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #189

gfodor wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems obvious at this point that there is a mechanism of action of the drug in the vaccine that can harm the heart and it’s highly likely this can lead to death. It’s time to stop mandating it for kids.

Obvious according to who? I literally directly addressed that claim, so I'll quote it again for you: > Myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. It is under debate whether myocarditis in COVID-19 is primarily caused by the viral infection or whether it occurs secondary as a consequence of the host´s immune response, in particular by T-lymphocyte-mediated cytotoxicity or as a cons…

The claim I am making is it appears likely to me that at least some of these cases are fatal, which would mean the underlying mechanism of action for this side effect of the drug can, in the worst case, cause death. This ought to influence the ethics of mandating it at a minimum.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#203

Post by hammock » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

c1ccccc1 wrote: post #188

hammock wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the authors offer no real ideas about how the damage could have happened They do, though. In fact that's the entirely novel value that this study brings. It's in the title: "histopathological characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination." That's a lot of words that means "we can now tell you exactly what microscopic tissue looks like following lethal jab-associated myocarditis.” And the scientis…

Fascinating. Without a detailed knowledge of biology, it seems like this could affect any cell type, why would heart muscle cells specifically be targeted? Are the spike proteins just more likely to get stuck to the surface of certain types of cell?

It's a good question. I believe there is some preliminary study around that, and it deserves more

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#204

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #176

mizzack wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"stated" is an interesting choice there, especially when using "recorded" a few words later. It reads as being a bit untrusting of the COVID death numbers.

Are the covid death numbers trustworthy? (honest Q)

They're probably low, if anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercounting_of_COVID-19_pand...

The chart on https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm shows all cause deaths before and during the pandemic; there's an extremely clear difference, and it coincides closely with the spikes in COVID cases we've seen.

This method of reporting avoids all the complexities around "died with COVID" vs "died of COVID", people who never get tested before dying, etc.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#205

Post by jgalt212 » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #31

gfodor wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccines were and still are mandated for people not at risk of severe disease, and myocarditis has been framed as a side effect not worth worrying about despite the fact that it literally can kill you. Not to mention without understanding the mechanism of action, we cannot estimate the number of true deaths that occurred without a myocarditis diagnosis.

Anything that gets your immune system going can trigger an autoimmune crisis, including, you guessed it viruses - which also use RNA to cause your cells to produce spike proteins, by the way.

Very true. And it's probably impossible to get an accurate count of the young people who fall into the following groups.

unvaccinated and got COVID-induced myocarditis

vaccinated and got COVID-induced myocarditis

vaccinated and got vaccine-induced myocarditis

vaccinated and no myocarditis

unvaccinated and no myocarditis

Am I missing any groups?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#206

Post by ccn0p » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:02 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #150

danhak wrote: post #8

We coerced young, low-risk people into receiving these treatments despite known side effects on pain of losing their education or employment or being able to enter privately-owned establishments (irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those privately-owned establishments). We justified it with the specious argument that they were putting other people at undue risk by remaining unvaccinated. We claimed that vacci…

You know what also causes myocarditis? COVID-19 [1]. So the choices were: 1. Don't pressure young people to get vaccinated. Nearly everyone who's unvaccinated eventually catches COVID-19. Some of them would have severe reactions and die; or spend time in a hospital, taking up space and delaying care for others, causing those other people to die. Nearly all of them would pass COVID-19 on to other people, many of whom…

One of the cruxes of the issue is what constitutes "pressure". Should we block children from going to school in order to "pressure" them forcing the risk of #1 on them rather than allowing parents to make their own choices?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#207

Post by hammock » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:02 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #204

hammock wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the covid death numbers trustworthy? (honest Q)

They're probably low, if anything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercounting_of_COVID-19_pand... The chart on https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm shows all cause deaths before and during the pandemic; there's an extremely clear difference, and it coincides closely with the spikes in COVID cases we've seen. This method of reporting avoids all the complexities around "died with COVID" vs "die…

>it coincides closely with the spikes in COVID cases we've seen.

Aren't there about 100 other confounders that could be in the mix there

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#208

Post by nulld3v » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:02 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #157

nulld3v wrote: post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

This paper doesn't claim that mRNA vaccines are dangerous, it investigates through autopsy 35 people in a region of Germany who died within 20 days of vaccination and only 5 of the deaths are found to show myocarditis of which only 3 somewhat might be attributed to the vaccine. This is not an expose of big Pharma or anything like that, I don't know why the HN comments are acting as if this is some kind of research su…

Yeah, I also currently believe that the statistics work out in favor of the vaccine. I am curious though, on how those 3 people died.

My biggest concern is in long-term effects. I understand that it is difficult to study them but that is why I am advocating for continued research.

So basically:

- I understand that in a pandemic situation, you can't wait for research into long-term effects to come out.

- Hence, in a pandemic situation, immediate vaccination should still be recommended.

- Research into long-term effects should continue after the pandemic.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#209

Post by oneoff786 » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:02 PM UTC

chedca21 wrote: post #15

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31 Covid-19: politicisation, “corruption,” and suppression of science "Professor John Ioannidis of Stanford University, quotes an infection fatality rate (IFR) for Covid of 0.00-0.57% (0.05% for under 70s), far lower than originally feared and no different to severe flu" -March 2020 The bigger scandal is how covid case:fatality rate was so much higher in some places than t…

Professor ioannidis forecasted 10,000 deaths in the US as a mid range guess of what to expect. He’s not exactly a good appeal to authority.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#210

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 8:02 PM UTC

hammock wrote: post #207

ceejayoz wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're probably low, if anything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercounting_of_COVID-19_pand... The chart on https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm shows all cause deaths before and during the pandemic; there's an extremely clear difference, and it coincides closely with the spikes in COVID cases we've seen. This method of reporting avoids all the complexities around "died with COVID" vs "die…

>it coincides closely with the spikes in COVID cases we've seen. Aren't there about 100 other confounders that could be in the mix there

Which of them do you propose would cause the American public (and others worldwide; we see excess deaths increased everywhere, whether they required masking or closed schools or did very little to mitigate) to suddenly start dying in significantly higher numbers - again, of any cause - for the last two years - and especially so at the same time large COVID waves are occurring?