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What future space combat would really look like

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161–170 of 235 posts

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#161
post #88

Space combat seems pointless to me. What exactly would they be fighting over? Presumably you want to reach space for resources, so asteroids, planets and moons with minerals, stuff like that. You might also want planets/asteroids/moons that are 'good' for colonization (easily terra formed or already life sustaining). You probably wouldn't see many fights where you are firing at the resource itself. No one with the mo…

You probably wouldn't see many fights where you are firing at the resource itself.

No, but if you can control travel to and from the resource, then you can park your forces there, and say, shut off the population's air supply. Better yet, threaten to do so, unless they all get onboard a shuttle.

A far more likely scenario would be to simply drive your competitor out of business. If they keep getting sabotaged, it becomes unprofitable for them to operate (it becomes a 'cursed' outpost, wages go up, you have to make repairs). Then you can easily take their stuff (or buy it on the cheap when they are going out of business).

Plenty of precedent for this tactic. It's been used by labor unions and informal groups of workers for nearly a couple of centuries now.

Maybe someone can weaponize psychological disorders or sociological pathologies this way? It's harder to make a group work well together than it is to make a group that is dysfunctional. Maybe this is already happening?

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#162
The OPs problem here is that in the attempt to change the analogy from naval combat to aerial warfare is that he fails to grasp the medium again.

Space is big, space is empty. FTA this means everything is easily trackable, not only are thrusters visible from across the solar system (except perhaps if you're headed directly for someone, but the thrust required there would be insane), but even every object in the solar system is glowing in infrared energy and thats background objects, not to mention you've strapped nuclear power plants, life support and whatever other heat producing apparatus onto your ship to make it glow even brighter.

The problem with being visible from a distance means it favours those who can hide. Basically, it favours mines. It's simple strap a laser onto a small rock, bury capacitors inside it and have them charged by solar panels. Why? Because the aim is to one-shot your target somewhere important. The mine is disposable, if it one shots the target you might get lucky enough to use it twice. If not you'll have dozens of others waiting. You've got 3 targets: Power supply (nuclear reactor/capacitor bank/whatever), main engine (you cripple their thrust and they're a sitting duck) and control centre (heck, you're likely able to nail all habitable space in one shot as a space ship is more likely to have a vastly expanded cockpit rather than a whole ship of habitable space)

The other problem with space combat is heat. Before you'd even fire a missile or a bullet, you're going to be aiming infrared lasers on your targets from light minutes away. If a ship is habitated then you only need to get it to the point where the life support can't shift enough heat to keep the air temperature below 40C. In uncrewed ships you're talking hot enough to make processors malfunction, which isn't considerably hotter than people can tolerate. These might cope better as cooling can be dedicated to very small areas.

The problem with space is that objects can get very hot, very fast and unless you bring a lot of material to heat sink and dump, you've got problems.

Space will be a war predominated with mines and heat. There are currently about 25,000 objects in space. If only 1% of these are ship-killer mines, would you attack Earth? Well, you'd need more than 250 ships, assuming you're able to kill all the mines in a very short time before they can refire.

Want to attack a mining base in the asteroid field? Find the rock without the massive laser hiding in it! Furthermore, try to wage an effective assault when you're pulverizing everything within a million kilometers of you, and still have the weapons/energy/heat sink capability to fight your target that has a massive rock of shielding and heat sinking, versus your ship.

What about launching asteroids or comets at your target? Well 1 if it's viable to nudge an asteroid from hitting earth, then it's viable to nudge the asteroid your in so that it's missed.

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#163
post #88

Space combat seems pointless to me. What exactly would they be fighting over? Presumably you want to reach space for resources, so asteroids, planets and moons with minerals, stuff like that. You might also want planets/asteroids/moons that are 'good' for colonization (easily terra formed or already life sustaining). You probably wouldn't see many fights where you are firing at the resource itself. No one with the mo…

Why are you always supposing that ships would be firing at valuable planets, then debunking that? Just extend the idea of a nation's airspace to a planet's "spacespace." Establishing space supremacy around a planet would obviously be a useful military tactic. You can stop extraplanetary supplies and commerce (think the blockade from Star Wars) and eventually take over a valuable planet by starving them out (assuming that the planet relies on space travel for a significant part of its economy, which is pretty much te assumption of this whole debate). That planet in turn will want its own space fleet to protect its spacespace. When the two forces meet, you have space battles. It seems simple to me.

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#164
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but even today, raw material resources tend not to be the sort of things criminals target directly. You rarely get thieves trying to steal lumber, or iron ore, for example, because they have a low price-to-weight ratio.

How about copper? We had someone steal it from the crawlspace of a house we rent out.

It's a question of scarcity, platinum, gold, silver, and copper still have value, salt does not.

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#165
post #113

If you're interested in "realistic" (meaning: no FTL) space battles read Alastair Reynolds' Redemption Ark (and read Revelation Space and Chasm City before that). It includes a chase between star systems that goes on for years and "close" (ie within a few light-seconds) combat that involves a lot of interpolation of enemy position, movement and actions. Personally I still have serious doubts about the viability of an…

I assumed that most of the proposed space battles in question would be between human factions relatively close together (certainly within the Solar system).

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#166
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I postered a comment on the essay, I'll repost it here: You assume the interstellar species will be living on a planet . What if they hollowed out their planet of resources long ago and now live in a cloud of asteroids instead? Asteroids are hollowed out as giant fortresses in space, and a bio dome sphere thingy built inside. As they are living in an asteroid cloud, to prevent impact they would have to attach thruste…

What about a shotgun approach? Take a comet, accelerate it up to a significant fraction of lightspeed (after all, you you have lightyears in which to do so), and trigger a bomb in the comet to blow it apart into a few smaller pieces, each traveling at a significant fraction of c . Rinse and repeat.

I've made another reply at the site:

So the invading force goes into the Oort cloud, picks a chunky rock, attaches a giant thruster to it and begins accelerating it towards c. A day later, the speed of the rock has reached 0.5c.

Hours later, a defending fleet arrives, shoots and kills all the invading bds. The rock however, continues at 0.5c even though the thruster and guidance systems were destroyed. It reaches the asteroid cluster, and hits... nothing. It keeps going to the other side of the solar system, and as its speed was so high, exits orbit.

Accelerating a giant rock to c takes throwing out alot* of gas. The asteroid based civilisation, to prevent random impacts with random asteroids, would've been tracking every object in the belt. One of the rocks suddenly accelerates, I think it will be picked up.

Also, when the asteroid was accelerating, its direction would've been picked up. Once accelerated to c, it will still take hours to arrive at the designated target. The home asteroids simply have to maneuvre away from an intercept course. And no, guidance systems on the accelerated rock won't help. It's travelling at c, and by the time the system finds out the target has moved away, the asteroid would've missed it. Unless the asteroid have 100% maneuverability, and energy to change course whenever, however it likes. But if the asteroid can do that, any asteroid can do that. ;)

So your only option is accelerating the rock from the next system onwards. It will now take years for the asteroid to arrive. To reduce the probability of a successful attack, just have a "random thruster day" every 30 days where all the home asteroids just move randomly to different locations. By the time the enemy asteroid arrives the location of all the home asteroids would've been different. The probability of hitting anything worth hitting will be very low. Even if you have 1000 incoming asteroids.

Also you're assuming you won't get picked up accelerating an asteroid to c in the next system; Remember, asteroids have no atmosphere and 100% visibility. You might miss 1, but 1000? I'd doubt it. if 1000 asteroids are really incoming then you just make every day random thruster day. ;) They have so much energy, you should too.

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#167
post #128
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, why does it require general purpose AI? The two examples you cherry-picked are the furthest objects in our solar system. You've literally picked the outlying examples and made them the rule. The same "problem" could be solved by sending a bunch of what are essentially missiles-carrying-missiles with algorithms that boil down to orders to shoot at any objects that are hot or fast moving or match certain radar s…

The point is that the 10-20 seconds latency that was mentioned is not even close to covering the next planet, much less the entire solar system. Yes, you can send off a bunch of heat-seeking missiles, but, as I mentioned in my original post way up this thread, these missiles are routinely defeated by counter-measures even when seconds away from the target. So, in the absence of strong AI, it's vastly more efficient t…

So, in the absence of strong AI, it's vastly more efficient to actually have a few humans on board the ships.

Have you done the math on that? Humans (and more importantly their life-support systems) are hugely, hugely expensive in terms of the carrying capacity of a space ship.

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#168
post #78
post #63

There are three fundamental problems I see here: 1) Why put humans on warships at all? Algorithms are probably better at it. Computers would obviously do the heavy lifting anyway (calculating burn times). An algorithm knows no fear, shows no mercy, and does not flee or surrender unless programmed to do so. The only thing left is target selection, and it doesn't seem worth bringing a human along just for that. 2) If y…

> Why put humans on warships at all? The whole idea of the article is to explore what's possible with current technology, and general-purpose AI is not part of that. Guided missiles are routinely defeated by counter-measures even when the flight only takes minutes.

You are thinking of a space ship as similar to an airplane, a tank or a ship.

In truth it is more analogous to a bullet or bomb - point it in the right direction and try and get it there as fast as possible.

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#169
post #8

"there's no stealth in space, but there most certainly is stealth in an atmosphere." It would allow for ambushes, and fake-ambushes. A lone-ship running from a fleet, carrying a local governor, running past an uninhabited planet, away from a chasing enemy fleet. The lone-ship passes right next to the planet and keeps going. The enemy fleet follows. When the fleet is passing next to the planet, will there be an ambush…

Unless you need to make a gravity-assisted course correction, why would you follow in the path of a ship? Ambushes aside, they can drop all sorts of things behind them that you don't want to run into.

Well my point stands, ambushes can be held in atmosphere.

Let's say enemy fleet regularly uses the planet to make a "gravity-assisted course correction"...

Re: What future space combat would really look like

#170

Against space piracy: First, it requires that FTL ships be cheap enough that criminals can acquire them. This is another area in which the analogy between the age of sail and the space age breaks down. Sailing ships were skill-intensive but materially cheap. You had to have people with the right skills, but once you did all you needed was wood, rope, and cloth. But spacecraft are going to follow a post-industrial rev…

Agreed. Piracy denotes the theft of goods or money. When you can print goods, money is worthless. Your soul resources become matter and energy, and most matter is easy to come by.

Piracy would likely extend solely to the theft of energy resources. Similarly, so would war but on a bigger scale.

Piracy of goods would only extend to things not easily replicable by the present technology, or not easily replicable on many colonies. Even then, you're looking more at the theft of raw materials or for material value. Piracy would likely resemble robbing armoured vans today than any kind of piracy we've seen before, but they'd likely be trying to get precious metals or power like uranium.

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