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After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

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Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#361
post #308

Wow, this is such a #goodnews story! > "I'll have to rework… my, uh, whole life, figure out what the heck's going on there. I don't really have any ideas or plans right now. I've just been thinking about dwarf stuff." > "My wife has plans," Zach said. "We live in a tiny little house, so buying a new house, that's a major goal."

I wonder why not he but his wife thought about improving their material circumstances? So content with his life, or so focused on the code, or something else?

Either he is that obsessive artist who pays little thought to anything else, or just wasn't ready for this sudden flux of money.

He gets to work on his dream project, and is beloved by thousands of fans. Sounds like a good life to live, even if in a tiny house!

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flipside is that it's a lottery. Steam is overflowing with new indie games every day, and many very good ones die in obscurity. You really have to get lucky and go viral But yeah, the entry fee for that lottery is at a historic low, which is still great (especially for hobby devs who don't care about the rest!)

Lottery implies its entirely luck based. When in reality, you have a great deal of control. Marketing IS something you can control. Sure, some streamer randomly picking up your game is beyond your control. But you can certainly create conditions that would make it easier for your game to be picked up by a streamer (build relationships with journos, streamers; get paid marketing, etc.) Calling it a lottery is a disser…

> When in reality, you have a great deal of control. Marketing IS something you can control.

If every creator does marketing, then everyone is in the same position and nobody has control. Also, check out this research paper, published in Science, showing that popularity signals like the number of downloads and ordering by popularity increases the unpredictability of a music market, which is an opposite effect to what you expect. I suspect similar effects happen for game and other cultural markets:

Salganik, M. J., Dodds, P. S., & Watts, D. J. (2006). Experimental study of inequality and unpredictability in an artificial cultural market. Science (New York, N.Y.), 311(5762), 854–856. https://www.princeton.edu/~mjs3/salganik_dodds_watts06_full....

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthcare and basic income are crucial for moving towards the next stage of civilizaiton. Like you said, I'm really glad it worked out for them but so, so many people don't get so lucky or are willing to take such a big risk. How many more dwarf fortresses could we have if we gave people the safety net to follow their dreams? Instead of worrying about basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare.

More people building dwarf fortresses means less people doing whatever they are right now. While some jobs may be completely pointless, I think we would quickly find that we actually need people doing boring jobs because society would fall apart without them and then no one gets to build video games.

I’d imagine the people offering those boring jobs would have to make them pretty appealing. Perhaps better pay, better work hours, etc.

I don’t think jobs would go away like you seem to imply. When I say taking care of peoples needs I don’t mean giving everyone a mansion.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#364

So this happened to a guy that worked for me. Loved video games, super talented front end dev. Made a horror game in Unity at evenings and weekends with his best friend. Launched it on Steam. Very low sales. But he learnt a huge amount about marketing and game design based on player feedback. Designed a second game, put all the marketing learnings into it, 48 hours after launch the biggest streamer on twitch was stre…

The flipside is that it's a lottery. Steam is overflowing with new indie games every day, and many very good ones die in obscurity. You really have to get lucky and go viral But yeah, the entry fee for that lottery is at a historic low, which is still great (especially for hobby devs who don't care about the rest!)

I think it's more than lottery. Skills, contents and marketing are all important aspects of game production. I wonder what is the chance of getting 1,000 sales for the Nth released non-free game. It won't feed the mouth but is a good start (to convince wife). Steam probably has the data.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#365
They deserve all the money they will get from their game. I am really happy for them, they allowed us to play DF for free for so long that I would not be mad if the sell price on steam was higher. DF is an awesome game and I hope they continue to improve it and to add content.

Good job guys !

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#366

So this happened to a guy that worked for me. Loved video games, super talented front end dev. Made a horror game in Unity at evenings and weekends with his best friend. Launched it on Steam. Very low sales. But he learnt a huge amount about marketing and game design based on player feedback. Designed a second game, put all the marketing learnings into it, 48 hours after launch the biggest streamer on twitch was stre…

> The biggest thing I saw was that 2 guys, Unity, unity asset store and some upwork artists made a really pretty decent game. I love how this has come full circle. I'm 47 and back in the 8 bit days games were made by 1 or 2 people. 15 years ago this just wasnt possible, but now with unity, unity assets, remote for hire work, steam and twitch for marketing you can legit make it as a 2 person studio. I love it.

While it's certainly possible it's very much the exception rather than the rule here. Let's take the parts of a game and individually look at why:

* Gameplay - This is where small indies really shine it possible to create a game with some cool gameplay. The problem here is that to create something that people actually find fun is rather hard. Most Indie games are boring as shit, they often have a single gimicky gameplay feature. You can try this yourself to come up with something that's truly fun. Sit down for 30 minutes and build a game that's unique and fun, you'll fine it's really hard. That's why the AAA game studios don't really do that. They use other techniques to sell the game like using and big well known IP. Most AAA gameplay is not unique and often is really not that fun for this exact reason. Note also here most indie devs who have never actually made a hit with tell you to just work on making the gameplay in your game really great. It's a cop out.

* Art - This is one of the hardest parts. You can kitbash a bunch of asset store stuff but then your game looks like a hodgepodge mess. You can hire an artist but if you want something really good looking you won't find them on upwork selling their labour at sweatshop rates. Really good artists are specialists in specific areas like character design, concept art, environment art ...etc. Trying to just find someone on upwork who will do all of that really well for you is basically impossible. Also note if you use stuff off the asset store you will need your artist to match that style which is actually really hard. To get really good art for a game you have to hire a team and build from the ground up. That's very difficult for indie teams most of which have no money to spend on art.

* Sound - Great games have great soundtracks. Often composed by someone with a lot of experience. These people are hard to find and even harder to convince to work on a game. Again like the art it's not something people are selling for cheap on upwork. Note also that you will want stuff in the game like jumping sounds, landing, clicking all that stuff. You can again find packs with this on the asset store but they often just won't have that sound you are looking for and mixing sound packs make the game seem cheap. The sound design has to be all one piece of work really. Think mixing 8-bit era sounds with more modern stuff it doesn't work.

* Testing - Often not looked upon but testing your own work doesn't work. You need someone independent to look at what you've done and break it. If you've ever played Bethesda Games you'll see what poor testing looks like. Note that the larger the scope of your game the amount of testing becomes exponential. The big AAA game studio have more testers than devs by far. If you look at many of the small indie game this really can kill the game. The devs chuck something together which looks ok and is fairly unique but is so poorly tested that no one is willing to buy.

All in all it's possible to do but really hard and I would say they got really lucky.

> The distribution of Steam and viral marketing of Twitch have revolutionised indie development

Yes but not in the way you think. Before anyone was able to put stuff on these shops getting on Steam was a one way ticket to $$$$. There where curated stores and even being in them meant you got a seal of approval from the likes of valve. Now-a-days the steam store is filled with so much asset flip junk "indie games" it's become a meme. To be seen on any of these platforms is now a real miracle. Again on twitch getting picked up by a big streamer is like winning the lottery. The vast majority of streamers on twitch make no money and have such a tiny audience getting on their streams would only net you double digit sales if you are lucky.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same conclusion I came to. Many Canadians are now against immigration due to their housing crisis. What they don’t realize is that Canada has been hit with a demographic bomb in the 1970s that other countries are now only starting to experience. Ie without immigration, the retired elderly will soon outnumber working age adults who contribute to the economy and tax revenue They only have two choices now: *…

More and more, I continue to be shocked that countries in this position didn't end up letting covid run its course. Seems like after some initial difficulties, it could have helped balance their demographics a lot.

Guess governments aren't as cynical as some think

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#368

So this happened to a guy that worked for me. Loved video games, super talented front end dev. Made a horror game in Unity at evenings and weekends with his best friend. Launched it on Steam. Very low sales. But he learnt a huge amount about marketing and game design based on player feedback. Designed a second game, put all the marketing learnings into it, 48 hours after launch the biggest streamer on twitch was stre…

The flipside is that it's a lottery. Steam is overflowing with new indie games every day, and many very good ones die in obscurity. You really have to get lucky and go viral But yeah, the entry fee for that lottery is at a historic low, which is still great (especially for hobby devs who don't care about the rest!)

> The flipside is that it's a lottery. Steam is overflowing with new indie games every day, and many very good ones die in obscurity.

Sounds to me like an opportunity. There may be a demand for a service that reviews indie games and "discovers" (promotes) little-known-but-great ones. It even has an obvious revenue source: allowing advertising by games (so long as advertisements and promoted works are VERY CLEARLY separated).

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This is pretty normal though. Also I wouldn't say they're racist. They'd strongly object to being called racist as well. And this is in a pretty liberal area too.

> This is pretty normal though.

It's not. Stop making excuses for them.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same conclusion I came to. Many Canadians are now against immigration due to their housing crisis. What they don’t realize is that Canada has been hit with a demographic bomb in the 1970s that other countries are now only starting to experience. Ie without immigration, the retired elderly will soon outnumber working age adults who contribute to the economy and tax revenue They only have two choices now: *…

More and more, I continue to be shocked that countries in this position didn't end up letting covid run its course. Seems like after some initial difficulties, it could have helped balance their demographics a lot.

Are you actually surprised governments didn’t decided to kill a few million of their own citizens?
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