Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A software change allowed FTX to use client money

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 402 posts

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#191

Post by galaxyLogic »

creato wrote: post #151
notch656a wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should apply to anyone. IMO engineers aren't special. As a human you should try not to fuck over other people.

I assume this is a reference to other engineering disciplines, where an engineer signing off on something has real meaning.

Right, "software engineer" is often used just as a synonym for "Programmer". That's just how the industry is, currently.

There are no regulations as to who can develop what software as far as I know. Whereas there are for who can design a bridge, act as your lawyer, or prescribe you medicine.

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#192

Post by spookthesunset »

everfree wrote: post #182
spookthesunset wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto only exists because it is unregulated. If it had to play by ethical, moral rules the entire space would collapse. The sole purpose of crypto is fraud. You take away the fraud and you get nothing but a solution in search of a problem.

Do you really believe that when Satoshi originally sat down to write the Bitcoin source code, he was thinking "I am going to write an open source software tool that's purpose-built for committing fraud"?

Who even knows who Satoshi is? It could be the original scammer… who really knows?

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#193

Post by papito »

adrr wrote: post #146
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Singh will definitely get prison time as well Remember Alamada wasn’t a normal customer. It was acting as a market maker/counterparty of last resort to many other FTX customers. In that case there could be situations where ‘normal customer liquidation rules’ shouldn’t apply - it can go in the red temporarily to enable others to trade (and FTX to make commission). From the facts in the article (which are obviously n…

I never understood why Alameda took risky bets when it could just make a bunch of cash off buy/ask spreads assuming trading volume was decent. Running the exchange they can front run any large trades and move the market.

SBF, through his industry connections, was able to figure out how to take the difference while trading Bitcoin between different countries, as the premiums are different. It's basically a legal money printer.

I am baffled by why fraud was necessary. I guess it's just means to an end for "effective altruism".

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#194

Post by martingoodson »

megablast wrote: post #161
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #23

> Only Singh, Bankman-Fried and a few other top FTX and Alameda executives knew about the exemption in the code, according to three former executives briefed on the matter. A digital dashboard used by staff to track FTX customer assets and liabilities was programmed so it would not take into account that Alameda had withdrawn the client funds, according to two of the people and a screenshot of the portal that Reuters…

> If you want to see what you should never do as a software engineer if you like not being in jail, this is it. Strange comment. Are the engineers who made the code change responsible?? Do engineers need to be lawyers and financial gurus too, and evaluate every ticket they are given for possible illegality in every country the software is used??

Yes of course they need to know the law. Anyone who might potentially break the law during the course of their work needs to know what that law is. ‘Just following orders’ is not a defence.

This is very odd special pleading by programmers. Every industry needs to do this: journalists learn media law in their university degrees, architects have to learn the building regulations. Why is programming any different?

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#195

Post by pavlov »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #178
CSMastermind wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, we hold other engineers responsible for the consequences of their work, personally I think the industry would be better off if we had more accountability for programmers.

But we don't hold the gun-industry accountable for mass-shootings. Maybe we should. But situation is a little bit similar here. The engineer created the gun. He didn't use the software to shoot people. Or maybe he did. The question is did he personally benefit from the change made more than his usual salary? Or think about people who build bridges. They just follow the orders they get from higher ups. Bridge collapse…

> "The question is did he personally benefit from the change made more than his usual salary?"

I would guess the compensation structure at FTX included a lot of their own crypto tokens, since the company can mint those at no cost. And Alameda was a big holder of those FTT/Serum tokens.

So you're a software engineer who owns theoretically millions of dollars worth of FTT tokens, and then the boss comes to you and asks to make an exception for Alameda... Since you work at FTX, you're probably aware that Alameda holds and trades a lot of FTT. If you do the code change to make Alameda look better and maintain the value of your own crypto portfolio, there's no question that you're a part of the fraud.

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#196

Post by ragtete »

salawat wrote: post #118
stickfigure wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For testing purposes, these 10 account numbers should be allowed to remove cash from any of our ATMs. The testers will put the money back." It doesn't sound that nefarious. If you told me this is how ATMs are currently being tested in the industry, I wouldn't be able to contradict you.

...A bench test of an ATM probably doesn't involve real money. No one in finance is stupid enough to use real money on production environments for testing purposes. There is test... And there is PROD. Never do the two meet. Ever. If someone out there does, please make yourself known so we can get the investigators over there ASAP.

Huh? You're telling me that you think they never test ATMs in prod? That's ridiculous.

You think they're just guessing that the test environment perfectly matches the prod environment?

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#197

Post by tomnipotent »

martingoodson wrote: post #194
megablast wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to see what you should never do as a software engineer if you like not being in jail, this is it. Strange comment. Are the engineers who made the code change responsible?? Do engineers need to be lawyers and financial gurus too, and evaluate every ticket they are given for possible illegality in every country the software is used??

Yes of course they need to know the law. Anyone who might potentially break the law during the course of their work needs to know what that law is. ‘Just following orders’ is not a defence. This is very odd special pleading by programmers. Every industry needs to do this: journalists learn media law in their university degrees, architects have to learn the building regulations. Why is programming any different?

> Yes of course they need to know the law

That's absolutely ridiculous, and no court would expect it.

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#198

Post by siva7 »

megablast wrote: post #161
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #23

> Only Singh, Bankman-Fried and a few other top FTX and Alameda executives knew about the exemption in the code, according to three former executives briefed on the matter. A digital dashboard used by staff to track FTX customer assets and liabilities was programmed so it would not take into account that Alameda had withdrawn the client funds, according to two of the people and a screenshot of the portal that Reuters…

> If you want to see what you should never do as a software engineer if you like not being in jail, this is it. Strange comment. Are the engineers who made the code change responsible?? Do engineers need to be lawyers and financial gurus too, and evaluate every ticket they are given for possible illegality in every country the software is used??

Yes, engineers are also held responsible. If you're being serious, here us some education about the origin of this principle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorantia_juris_non_excusat

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#199

Post by chaostheory »

andrewstuart wrote: post #75

The real problem behind all these crypto companies is the people who make the money have no concept of what "integrity" is. They aren't coming from a baseline assumption that their job is to protect and interests and the money of their clients. Traditional banks, for the most part, have DNA built around protecting customer interests and customer money. Crypto companies have none of that attitude - behind every one of…

I find it funny that you’re associating integrity with Wall Street. From my perspective, Wall Street’s morals and ethics is not far off from Silicon Valley’s if not worse. The main difference is that Wall Street has mastered the art of adapting to regulations and lobbying politicians and their very own regulators. It’s not a secret that there’s a revolving door between top regulatory bodies and Wall St entities. Also while having private corporations like the DTCC and FINRA fool the masses into thinking that they’re public regulatory bodies, it doesn’t fool us. Wall Street has way more crooks than Silicon Valley. They’re just better at hiding and legalizing their theft and corruption. At lease Silicon Valley creates things with value for society.

Re: A software change allowed FTX to use client money

#200

Post by tomnipotent »

CSMastermind wrote: post #167
megablast wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to see what you should never do as a software engineer if you like not being in jail, this is it. Strange comment. Are the engineers who made the code change responsible?? Do engineers need to be lawyers and financial gurus too, and evaluate every ticket they are given for possible illegality in every country the software is used??

I don't know, we hold other engineers responsible for the consequences of their work, personally I think the industry would be better off if we had more accountability for programmers.

> we had more accountability for programmers

You could make this argument for literally every profession.

Post reply on HN