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Time to end the war on drugs

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Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#191

Post by SoftwareMaven »

paulhauggis wrote: post #180
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the real data from Portugal mean nothing to you? Every drug stat is down after legalizing and treating. I really don't understand why people are so willing to punish others (and pay dearly to do it), but not to help, even if it is cheaper and more efficacious.

Did you read what I said? The drug stats are not down. It's created more addicts. Why? Because when drugs are legalized/decriminalized, more people are willing to try it (which makes sense). "I really don't understand why people are so willing to punish others" Sorry, but drugs are a personal choice. If you can't accept the consequences that come along with it, you shouldn't be ingesting mind-altering or addictive dr…

"It's made more addicts"

Or maybe existing addicts feel more comfortable being identified now that they aren't going to jail?

"drugs are a personal choice"

In the US, drugs are not a personal choice. I'm fine with you saying you don't want to pay for treatment of drug users, but why are so many of those same people (I don't know if you are in this category) so willing to pay to incarcerate them, which has been shown to have much, much higher costs, both in terms of actual dollars and in term of social costs?

The fact that I can go to jail for a small amount of weed says drugs are absolutely not a personal choice. But you are right, they should be.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#192

Post by lmkg »

bostonvaulter2 wrote: post #154
sneak wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that indeed override the state laws? Many states have laws against things that are not federally prohibited, and legal in other states that do not prohibit those things. I think you may be incorrect.

States can be more restrictive but they cannot be less restrictive. Thus if the nation declares that marijuana is illegal a state cannot declare that it is legal (see the medical marijuana raids in California). And if the nation declares that alcohol is legal then a state can make it illegal within that state.

This is sorta-kinda true, but not quite. While the residents of a state are technically held to the union of state and federal laws, the jurisdictional issues are important. If a state declares something legal, that means that state-level LEOs won't enforce the federal laws. Those laws are still in effect, but if you're a deadbeat twenty-something toking up behind the liquor store, you care about the subset of laws being enforced by the local beat cop, not those being enforced by the FBI.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#193

Post by mcantor »

betterth wrote: post #150
chimeracoder wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have been clearer - I was just trying to be concise to prove a point. And I'm making the assumption that we're comparing drugs of high quality in either category (because obviously drugs that are mixed with adulterants are going to have other problems). You seem to understand what's going on, but for anybody else who's curious: Adderall isn't methamphetamine. However, the methyl group doesn't change the way…

Awesome information! While unrelated to the science, I am a previous user of Adderall XR and then Vyvanse and I want to share some advice on the subject for any hackers out there using these drugs or thinking about them: It's crazy, it makes you operate on a different level, and I feel bad for anyone in a competitive college or learning situation that isn't using it: it's just unfair. But is cheating at being smart u…

Just wanted to offer a second opinion. I too went from Adderall to Vyvanse; I still take the latter. It doesn't give me tunnel vision, and it helps me focus where sleep/diet/exercise did not. So don't rule it out or go for it based on our anecdotal experience. If your psychiatrist thinks it's a good idea, try it and see how it interacts with your individual brain chemistry!

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#194

Post by skore »

wildgift wrote: post #124
skore wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to further suggest we end the use of the word "war" in contexts that do not involve mandatory conscription and the deaths of large numbers of combatants until one side totally surrenders. It's really interesting to me in what way his statement is actually true, as you say, just not in the way that it is sold (he is right on that part - declaring "war" on anything from Iraq to Christmas is in itself an is…

Drugs use and addiction are mental health issues. People who use drugs often have other problems. Maybe not serious problems, but, who doesn't have some problems that can't get better with some "talking it out"? How many of us have had a beer or smoked a bowl of marijuana to "chill out" after the stress of work? It's normal to self-medicate in this modern world. We have to work at jobs, and then we take a chemical th…

Correct - there are problems in this world that cannot be solved with force and guns, quite the opposite. The US is learning that in various ways these days.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#195

Post by nate_meurer »

paulhauggis wrote: post #180
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the real data from Portugal mean nothing to you? Every drug stat is down after legalizing and treating. I really don't understand why people are so willing to punish others (and pay dearly to do it), but not to help, even if it is cheaper and more efficacious.

Did you read what I said? The drug stats are not down. It's created more addicts. Why? Because when drugs are legalized/decriminalized, more people are willing to try it (which makes sense). "I really don't understand why people are so willing to punish others" Sorry, but drugs are a personal choice. If you can't accept the consequences that come along with it, you shouldn't be ingesting mind-altering or addictive dr…

> "The drug stats are not down. It's created more addicts."

This isn't really correct, certainly not the way you've stated it. The data you're probably thinking of point to a slight rise in "lifetime use". Almost all of that is cannabis use. The only significant effect shown by the data is that there has been a ~5% rise in the number of people who regularly use cannabis, and are expected to continue in the future.

Twisting this into "created more addicts" is a bit tabloid, don't you think?

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#196

Post by tankenmate »

akg1 wrote: post #151
knieveltech wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both of you are on the right track but may be mistaken regarding who stands to profit the most from continued prohibition. Both local law enforcement and the for-profit companies behind our jails profit enormously from the US having the highest percentage of population incarcerated of any first world country. The majority of individuals currently doing time are in for drug-related crimes.

> US having the highest percentage of population incarcerated of any first world country. We have the highest incarceration rate, full stop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...

“The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons” -- Fyodor Dostoyevski

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#197

Post by nate_meurer »

paulhauggis wrote: post #178
_gd3l wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is drug usage a "medical" problem? Because it's the ingestion of mind-altering substances to achieve a certain goal. Most often this goal is inebriation for entertainment purposes, some times (especially in indigenous cultures) it's a spiritual goal. > It's a personal choice. Sure, many times it is. But I think more often than you'd realize it's less of a choice and more of a predisposition. I mean, if some peo…

"Because it's the ingestion of mind-altering substances to achieve a certain goal. Most often this goal is inebriation for entertainment purposes, some times (especially in indigenous cultures) it's a spiritual goal." A "medical" problem to me is having cancer or a disease. Something you can't stop. If you don't ever ingest illegal drugs, you will never becom an addict of them (funny how that works). " I mean, if som…

Many of the most addictive drugs are legal. Good luck avoiding the narcotics if you ever need back surgery.

You assert that marijuana "kills brain cells". I would LOVE to know where you got that from. Keep in mind that the bar is pretty high here. Brain cells are slaughtered in mass by drugs which are now perfectly legal -- one in particular, I'll let you guess which one.

Your last sentence is telling I think. Why would you assume that arguments against you are coming from "the left"?

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#198

Post by jasonlotito »

paulhauggis wrote: post #182
paulhauggis wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of the community down voting this is fantastic!

The irony of the community down voting this is fantastic!

These two comments don't contribute to the discussion, hence these two will get down voted. If you want to contribute, contribute, but posting comments like these don't further intelligent discussion.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#199

Post by geden »

gnaritas wrote: post #135
geden wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simply a matter of education, access to knowledge. It's a slow process. Organised religion fizzled away when faced with widespread access to the facts (though two world wars surely helped).

> Organised religion fizzled away when faced with widespread access to the facts Where? That's certainly not the case in America; access to facts does nothing more than make believers even more devout.

In the minds of the educated middle class.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#200

Post by da_dude4242 »

tomwalker wrote: post #184

I am a doctor in a Scottish hospital. For every productive member of society using drugs there must be at least 2 -3 that drain from society I rarely see anyone use methadone long term and rehabilitate themselves back to productive members of society. They end up being permanently high. My opinion is not isolated amongst my colleagues. Spend a couple of hours in a hospital that provides free health care and see the d…

>For every productive member of society using drugs there must be at least 2 -3 that drain from society

On what grounds do you make this claim?

Perhaps for every user that makes it to your hospital there are 2-3 that don't and are relatively adjusted. Drugs certainly have their hazards but it's fallacious to extrapolate the big picture from the perspective you are presenting.

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