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Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#281

Post by logifail »

steveBK123 wrote: post #170
asoneth wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed that they are expensive cars that have gotten even more expensive over the last decade. But comparing absolute numbers for a car you bought five years ago may be misleading because the majority of the increase is likely due to inflation. Back of the envelope math: If you were in CA and got $7.5k federal and $2.5k state credits that means the Model 3 you bought in 2017 was ~$60k or ~$73k in today's dollars. If…

Inflation is a huge factor here for sure. Most people probably can't get their heads around a well equipped Toyota Corolla approaching $30k or Honda Accord hitting $40k. Mentally to me these are BMW 3-series prices, but that's not been true for some time! If you are in the market for a 3-row / 7 seater, you can spend $55k on a Toyota Highlander SUV or $40k on a Toyota Siena minivan. It's genuinely pretty challenging…

> outside fairly basic [...] vehicles in their base trim without options

Nothing wrong with basic vehicles "in their base trim without options", we have two parked outside the house right now, and the vehicle we owned before them was similar.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#282

Post by xyzelement »

steveBK123 wrote: post #105
blagie wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing something for pure status signalling is considered crass. Expensive hobbies are not. I think they should be, but they're not.

Exactly. To me, a $500k unnecessary renovation throws more money away than a $70k vs $40k car. At least with the car you are likely getting safety features and extensive sensor suites for driver assist for the money, that have tangible impact on your driving experience. Or Spending 5-10x on a $10k appliance where a $1-2k one would do. These people tend to get the whole set, so it's a good $30-40k worth of kitchen app…

I dunno. We recently bought a house where the kitchen had been recently renovated. I don't know if our appliances are super high end but they are definitely on that side, and it makes the kitchen feel great. We probably wouldn't spend as much time in it otherwise. So let's say that kitchen cost 40k (I have no idea)...but lasts us 20 years. That's 2k a year for a very enjoyable part of our house, probably the most used space by far.

On the contrary, if we had spent an additional 40k on our car, how much of a game changer would that have been and how long would it have lasted?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#283

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

mike_hearn wrote: post #263
notinfuriated wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Steve Jobs example I immediately think of when talking about imitating unnecessary behaviors are all the people who started dressing like Steve Jobs. Elizabeth Holmes and Mark Zuckerberg come to mind as people who did this in an obvious way. But the 'asshole boss' or authority figure archetype is an old one, from long before Steve Jobs, and it can be an effective motivational tool, although many of us, myself inc…

Holmes yes, so obviously so that people remarked on it. Zuckerberg? The archetype of Steve Jobs' dress code is the black turtleneck and jeans. Zuck is famous for his consistent grey t-shirt and jeans, or sometimes hoodies.

> his consistent grey t-shirt and jeans

I’m pretty sure they were talking about that consistency.

The story that I have heard, is that Jobs wore the same thing, every day, so his mind wouldn’t be “bogged down,” with minutia, like what to wear.

I think some folks also have superstitions about dress.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#284

Post by bri3d »

moneywoes wrote: post #270
trasz2 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically a Rolex, however expensive, will always be much worse as a watch than a 20$ Casio. But recently there's another aspect to this: there are now watches that are technically (mechanically) identical to rolexes. Same design, same mechanics, virtually impossible to tell the difference when you tear it apart. Rolex has always been more about marketing (artificial scarcity, waiting list etc) than mechanics, but…

Where can one get those similar Rolex’s? For science

The search term you want is just "Replica." RWI, RWG, RepTime on Reddit, and other private forums will analyze the quality and details of these clones in ridiculous detail. They also have reviews of each reseller and each factory.

I don't even own any fake watches at this point and I've found these forums highly addictive/interesting - honestly, the average skill/knowledge level is quite high compared to most "watch enthusiast" forums.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#285

Post by Gordonjcp »

steveBK123 wrote: post #112
nradov wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Toyota Land Cruiser has been a popular car in certain upper-class circles. At $87k it's fairly expensive, but it doesn't look expensive.

Precisely! Not to mention a fully specced out Tesla Model 3 is $80k and Model Y is now.. $90k, and the tax credits are basically gone! I remember getting a pretty well configured Model 3 for $50k after tax incentives in their first year of production. For ~$70k you used to be able to get a Model S, which now STARTS at $105k. Easily configurable into the $130-160k range now.. insane.

> For ~$70k you used to be able to get a Model S, which now STARTS at $105k. Easily configurable into the $130-160k range now.. insane.

For a shit car with the interior fit and finish of a poverty-spec Skoda, and all the important controls replaced with a bloody great iPad that blinds you at night.

Oh, and it's from an obscenely "techbro" company.

Am I the only one not impressed in any sense by Teslas?

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#286

Post by yourapostasy »

idiocrat wrote: post #110
helen___keller wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW is frowned upon. But instead they have eccentric "hobbies" requiring $10ks of of equipment, inclusive of "needing" $10k viking stove/range, and $10k subzero fridge/freezer in your kitchen because you are a "foodie" […] Isn’t this conflating status signal with lifestyle? The wealthy have always enjoyed expensive lifestyles and hobbies. In and of itself, expensive hobby equip…

> The wealthy have always enjoyed expensive lifestyles and hobbies. Sorry to jump in. There is a 2003 documentary by the name "Born Rich". This is about the children from the wealthy people and how they are coping with the boredom of being able (afford) to do anything. Many are naturally isolated and invent obscure hobbies and life-styles not fitting their "wealthy statuses". Not sure how it is changing in more respo…

> ...coping with the boredom of being able (afford) to do anything.

That’s mostly a lack of sufficient education and rearing to arm them with enough knowledge and grit to choose and tackle from an infinite number of problems to advance towards a possible solution. Most of those problems don’t take generational wealth scale money to make a dent into, but a tremendous amount of hard work for years and even decades without expectations of acclaim commensurate with their generational wealth background.

Which points out the other problem: most of them want (or are pushed since childhood to want) the acclaim accrued by their inherited wealth also attached to their efforts in whatever direction they choose. It’s why we get the dilettante phenomenon among them so much.

Tightly coupling wealth to accomplishment across generations is possibly a very leaky abstraction.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#287

Post by Gordonjcp »

aix1 wrote: post #180
lotsofpulp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, the Land Cruiser will be passed down for many generations, so the amortized cost of a Land Cruiser is not expensive. Also, Land Cruiser has apparently been discontinued.

> the Land Cruiser will be passed down for many generations Wait, what sort of longevity are we taking about? 15 years? 20? I don't think we humans can reproduce quickly enough for that to span "many generations". :-)

Both of my Range Rovers are 25 years old. One's heading for a light refurb and overhaul at nearly 300,000 miles, the other has just had its first "big" service at 100,000 miles.

Fuel availability considerations notwithstanding, there's very little that would stop them going another 25 years.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#288

Post by kens »

steveBK123 wrote: post #254
ipaddr wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

500k or 500m in renovations will increase the value of the property. A car is worth 20% less the day you drive it off of the lot and keeps losing value. Having freezer space can save you thousands of dollars in food.

Cars are absolutely depreciating assets. However a $70k car generally has a much better set of class leading accident avoidance & safety features than a $25k car which will generally be minimum legally required for compliance. A new car has a much different safety profile than a 10 or 20 year old car. Watching crash videos on YouTube is very illuminating as to how far we've come even versus a car from 2000. Modern ad…

The crash videos of old vs new cars are very interesting (and scary). Especially 1959 Bel Air vs 2009 Malibu. In the older car, you smash into the dashboard and then the passenger compartment collapses and crushes you. In the new car, you hit the airbag. Of course you don't expect much from 1959, but even 1992 Nissan vs 2016 Nissan is a huge difference in survivability.

I highly recommend the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TikJC0x65X0

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#289

Post by mlyle »

ww520 wrote: post #195
browningstreet wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for a wealthy man. I remember two stories among many: He once told me he was upgrading the doorknobs and hinges in this house. The bill just for those items came to $45K. We were both getting coffee in the office once, and he looked towards me and ask, “My socks cost more than everything you’re wearing.” And he liked me.

> “My socks cost more than everything you’re wearing.” That’s a strange thing to waste money on for signaling. It just showed the lack of understanding on marginal utility on commodity items.

> It just showed the lack of understanding on marginal utility on commodity items.

I think you're showing the lack of understanding of marginal utility.

By the time you're spending $45k on doorknobs, $400 on socks might offer equal marginal utility per dollar.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#290

Post by onetimeusename »

steveBK123 wrote: post #47

"An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car." This tidbit reminds me of a similar anecdote (that my experience aligns with) re: the modern upper class that wearing a $2k Rolex or driving a $70k BMW i…

Rolex hatred seems like it is about expressing contempt towards the previous establishment. Presidents used to wear them (still do actually) but it's not uncommon to see very rich politicians wearing very cheap watches probably deliberately. Same goes for suit wearing.

I think pg wrote an article on his blog about how suit wearing was for people who thought like conformists and obviously being a conformist was not for hackers. I am paraphrasing because I can't remember now exactly what he said. But I just think it was contempt of previously established people working in finance or law. Now, the largest companies in the US skew towards tech companies.

I don't know why that happens that newly successful people seem to dislike the symbols of the previous elite rather than just mind their own business. Wearing a suit to a tech company will probably get you ostracized even if you just like wearing suits. This is in spite of the claim that the hoodie culture is not concerned what you dress up in, in fact they are. Maybe you could call that counter counter-signalling. It's just like taking a large salary at a tech company instead of having a $1 salary and getting enormous options and stock payouts. Somehow taking a large salary is worse despite that being normal for CEOs previously.

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