An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#81

Post by bombcar » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

burritas wrote: post #31

mgrthrow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the classic answer to the classic question about anarchy: "who will do the unpleasant, demeaning work?" "We only think it's unpleasant because we make it unpleasant. We can have clean, well lit factories. We just have to prioritize making that work more pleasant."

How do we make cleaning septic tanks more enjoyable?

By making it it well and entertaining.

There are entire YouTube channels dedicated to it. Septic sucking is a function of capital costs not labor costs.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#82

Post by scottLobster » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #52

pfisherman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs Sounds like a signal from the market that they are not paying enough. One might argue about how social welfare programs and / or importing cheap labor distort the labor market; but it doesn’t change the fact that jobs are the dregs of the labor market.

It is that signal, but are we ready to pay everyone more, even for low-skill jobs? How much more is everyone willing to pay for groceries? How much more for health care? For most people here, that won't matter, because paying 50% more for groceries would barely be noticeable, and neither would 50% more for health care be. But for society at large, that would kill many lifestyles.

Exactly, wealth is being concentrated at the top to such extremes that there is no more excess money in the lower/middle classes to tap. So somehow or other the increase in wages will have to come from the wealthy, whether through intentional redistribution, market forces, or peasant uprisings. Likely some combination of all three.

Eventually it just becomes a physics problem. If $100 exist in the world, and one guy has $99, and you need to fund something that takes $2, you have to get $1 out of the rich guy somehow.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#83

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #75

mgbmtl wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While many large corporations declare record profits, I doubt that the person cleaning the toilets is really a major issue.

It's not only about the person cleaning the toilets, companies often have more than one employee that's paid too little. Look at nurses for example: you need plenty of them in hospitals and nursing homes, they are (in my opinion) severely underpaid. Raise their wages by 50%. You can make an educated guess how that will influence the price of healthcare or living in a nursing home.

Nurses are highly skilled and highly paid workers, they do however have nursing aides for the grunt work.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#84

Post by zozbot234 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:47 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #62

arglebargle123 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI would go a long way towards pulling the very poor up out of the cycle of "I'll take whichever bad choice is least bad right now because I'm desperate."

We don't have that cycle in Germany at all. Yet we don't see any of the promises of UBI materializing.

Germany doesn't have Minijobs? They're pretty much what this article is describing.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#85

Post by luckylion » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #84

luckylion wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have that cycle in Germany at all. Yet we don't see any of the promises of UBI materializing.

Germany doesn't have Minijobs? They're pretty much what this article is describing.

Germany doesn't have

> the cycle of "I'll take whichever bad choice is least bad right now because I'm desperate."

Welfare covers the basics and provides for a modest life, no desperation included.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#86

Post by luckylion » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #83

luckylion wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only about the person cleaning the toilets, companies often have more than one employee that's paid too little. Look at nurses for example: you need plenty of them in hospitals and nursing homes, they are (in my opinion) severely underpaid. Raise their wages by 50%. You can make an educated guess how that will influence the price of healthcare or living in a nursing home.

Nurses are highly skilled and highly paid workers, they do however have nursing aides for the grunt work.

That may be the case in the US, but not in Germany and Austria. Nurses are paid pretty bad, and, surprise surprise, they're having problems finding people to choose that career.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#87

Post by Hizonner » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #73

Hizonner wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure the only way a robot is going to convince me that obvious makework is important is to do a lobotomy. Which I'd kind of prefer not to have. Maybe people should get over the idea that work should be their source of worth. Which I suspect they will manage to do within a generation or so.

> Pretty sure the only way a robot is going to convince me that obvious makework is important is to do a lobotomy. Which I'd kind of prefer not to have. Clearly they need to make it non-obvious make work in order to give those who want it adequate satisfaction. To you it will look like productive work but really it will simply be a game. In many small ways we are there already. > Maybe people should get over the idea…

> Clearly they need to make it non-obvious make work in order to give those who want it adequate satisfaction.

There are limits to how much you can fool people, no matter how smart you are.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#88

Post by CrazyStat » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:58 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #75

mgbmtl wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While many large corporations declare record profits, I doubt that the person cleaning the toilets is really a major issue.

It's not only about the person cleaning the toilets, companies often have more than one employee that's paid too little. Look at nurses for example: you need plenty of them in hospitals and nursing homes, they are (in my opinion) severely underpaid. Raise their wages by 50%. You can make an educated guess how that will influence the price of healthcare or living in a nursing home.

>You can make an educated guess how that will influence the price of healthcare or living in a nursing home.

Based on the $49 charge for 5ml of sugar water to calm our newborn baby down so a nurse could draw his blood, probably not much.

(The nurse failed to draw his blood. After four or five failed attempts over several hours they eventually asked a nurse from the NICU to come over, who got it first try.)

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#89

Post by selestify » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #52

pfisherman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs Sounds like a signal from the market that they are not paying enough. One might argue about how social welfare programs and / or importing cheap labor distort the labor market; but it doesn’t change the fact that jobs are the dregs of the labor market.

It is that signal, but are we ready to pay everyone more, even for low-skill jobs? How much more is everyone willing to pay for groceries? How much more for health care? For most people here, that won't matter, because paying 50% more for groceries would barely be noticeable, and neither would 50% more for health care be. But for society at large, that would kill many lifestyles.

> But for society at large, that would kill many lifestyles.

So change those unsustainable lifestyles then

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#90

Post by imoverclocked » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #83

luckylion wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only about the person cleaning the toilets, companies often have more than one employee that's paid too little. Look at nurses for example: you need plenty of them in hospitals and nursing homes, they are (in my opinion) severely underpaid. Raise their wages by 50%. You can make an educated guess how that will influence the price of healthcare or living in a nursing home.

Nurses are highly skilled and highly paid workers, they do however have nursing aides for the grunt work.

In some places they may be highly paid. In many, they are not. I know this because of close family who have worked as managers of multiple hospitals and hospice that have extremely uneven pay scales even in a single region. You might even assert that the people with less pay have more/sufficient staffing on hand but you would be wrong. The amount of WTF/hospital in the US never ceases to surprise me.