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Is America Stealing TSMC?

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Re: Is America Stealing TSMC?

#61

Post by grumple »

oreally wrote: post #49
grumple wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC is a public company. Last news I see shows a drop to 73% of the company being foreign-owned. The biggest shareholders are American. It might be more accurate to say it's an American company that operates in Taiwan.

Is the US chinese-owned because it's amongst the top holders of the US's debt then? Of course not. If you think american shareholders have a huge say in the running of the company, or can claim their works and assets anytime like you've been saying, get real. American shareholders only care if the profits TSMC line up their pockets.

Bringing up the debt was a useless strawman. The US government is not a corporation, and China definitely doesn't own the majority of the US. China isn't even the largest foreign debt holder either. And foreign debtholders don't hold most US debt - the US does. Be better, these were 4 inaccuracies / fallacies in one statement.

That's exactly how ownership works in the US and other free nations. If foreign citizens own the majority of a private US company and its voting shares, they have control over that company. Taiwan has similar rules. [0]. "Each shareholder of the Corporation shall have a voting right for each share they hold. Voting rights may be exercised in writing or electronically at the shareholders' meeting of the Corporation."

Taiwan allows significant foreign ownership, even where it is restricted it's set to 60% max (it isn't for TSMC). And they are a democratic, capitalist society, not an authoritarian one like China. And they have many reason to placate Americans, since we're the only thing standing between them and China.

0. https://twse-regulation.twse.com.tw/ENG/EN/law/DAT0201.aspx?....

Re: Is America Stealing TSMC?

#62

Post by refurb »

VictorPath wrote: post #52
refurb wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US position is just politics between super powers. They’re literally sending high technology weapons to counter China. The only body that makes decisions about Taiwan is the Taiwanese government. It has 100% control of the land within its borders. Not sure how much more sovereign you can get than that.

> The only body that makes decisions about Taiwan is the Taiwanese government. It has 100% control of the land within its borders. Being that the Taiwanese government claims Beijing and Shanghai as being within its borders, I don't think that this is the case.

Again politics.

It’s a sovereign state with claims over a larger territory than it controls.

Re: Is America Stealing TSMC?

#63

Post by oreally »

grumple wrote: post #61
oreally wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the US chinese-owned because it's amongst the top holders of the US's debt then? Of course not. If you think american shareholders have a huge say in the running of the company, or can claim their works and assets anytime like you've been saying, get real. American shareholders only care if the profits TSMC line up their pockets.

Bringing up the debt was a useless strawman. The US government is not a corporation, and China definitely doesn't own the majority of the US. China isn't even the largest foreign debt holder either. And foreign debtholders don't hold most US debt - the US does. Be better, these were 4 inaccuracies / fallacies in one statement. That's exactly how ownership works in the US and other free nations. If foreign citizens ow…

> If foreign citizens own the majority of a private US company and its voting shares, they have control over that company.

And I highly doubt Taiwan's government would allow any move that threatens their one of their economic golden gooses. Then as mentioned in the video, you literally do not get to control employees through a vote of shares - they'll quit and work at another competitor. You might think people will always stick to the principles of democracy and rules of law, but as the US itself has proven itself time and time again, they'll put on tariffs if push comes to shove, screw democracy.

Hell, the incentives don't even line up for shareholders to fulfill America's dreams and wishes. Trying to equate voting shares to a company being 'American' without addressing the social, political realities is wishful American centrism.

Re: Is America Stealing TSMC?

#64

Post by thomasz »

kimmik wrote: post #13

In 20 years when tsmc has effectively transferred to america, taiwan will stop being contested and go the way of other chinese islands like hk. This is the logical solution to the us-china cold war.

Taiwan is the key part of the first island chain[1] that prevents china from projecting hard power beyond their immediate neighborhood. It is way more important for the American hegemony than Ukraine for example. I really do not think that TSMC is the deciding factor here.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain

Re: Is America Stealing TSMC?

#65

Post by ashwagary »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #40
martin_a wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> give them up to China I'm not sure the US would let this happen. Maybe they'd just level the factories with cruise missiles before China can get hold of them.

It is pretty well known that TSMC's factories and most other important Taiwanese industries that china would really like to get a hold of are already rigged to blow if needed.

>rigged to blow

Sounds like a stressful work environment.

Re: Is America Stealing TSMC?

#66

Post by grumple »

oreally wrote: post #63
grumple wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bringing up the debt was a useless strawman. The US government is not a corporation, and China definitely doesn't own the majority of the US. China isn't even the largest foreign debt holder either. And foreign debtholders don't hold most US debt - the US does. Be better, these were 4 inaccuracies / fallacies in one statement. That's exactly how ownership works in the US and other free nations. If foreign citizens ow…

> If foreign citizens own the majority of a private US company and its voting shares, they have control over that company. And I highly doubt Taiwan's government would allow any move that threatens their one of their economic golden gooses. Then as mentioned in the video, you literally do not get to control employees through a vote of shares - they'll quit and work at another competitor. You might think people will a…

TSMC is literally building out multiple fabs in Arizona to placate America's wishes, including a 4nm and 3nm process, which is more advanced than any they currently have.

> Hell, the incentives don't even line up for shareholders to fulfill America's dreams and wishes. Trying to equate voting shares to a company being 'American' without addressing the social, political realities is wishful American centrism.

This is literally what's happening. It's not a dream or wish, it's a desire, and one that TSMC has decided to fulfill. You continue to say "they won't" but they have already decided to do exactly what the US wants.

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