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Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

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Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#121

Post by adlpz »

rippercushions wrote: post #92
ziml77 wrote: post #36

"Fatalities per 1,000 kilometers of motorway" That doesn't seem like a very good metric to me. There's no way there's any single number that can properly compare driving deaths between countries, but shouldn't this at least be normalized to account for number of drivers? Like what if Finland just has a lot of long, empty roads? Also doesn't there need to be a comparison within the German data on deaths on roads with…

Finland doesn't have much of a motorway network and also has serious winter conditions, black ice on the roads for much of the year in all major coastal cities, etc. If anything it's an even more astonishing number when you account for this.

Not really, in my opinion. When conditions are obviously bad, people behave more cautiously. It is when everything seems fine and easy that people get too comfortable with pushing the limits, or things get too boring, and mistakes happen.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#122

Post by withinboredom »

Animatronio wrote: post #70
ttyyzz wrote: post #19

I come from Germany / Bavaria. I've been driving on the A8 autobahn between Stuttgart and Munich for many years. About 2.5 years ago, the maximum speed of 120 was introduced in a 10 km long section near Augsburg, from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. There are some many exits in quick succession. It is generally very dangerous when people traveling at very high speeds (i.e. people who are just driving there) meet people who are trav…

What would you say is the average speed on every lane?

In my experience in the NL, the far right lane is held by people going under the speed limit (truckers, cautious drivers). But if it’s not being held, people move into it and pass as needed. If it’s busy, the second lane will be held by people going the speed limit and the third lane by people passing them. The fourth lane is usually open all the time except to pass people passing people. Speed cameras are usually based on “average speed” so you can “save up” speed by going slower than the speed limit for awhile.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#123

Post by [deleted] »

kmlx wrote: post #113
bluecalm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a solution which EU is actually implementing: automatic speed limiters in every car. Unfortunately the auto industry lobbies successfully to delay it and cripple it so instead of having it obligatory in every car 10 years ago we will have a crippled version of it in some cars (new ones) starting in a year. It's a start though. 20 more years and the problem will be solved.

> automatic speed limiters in every car. this is literally the nightmare of every driver.

[deleted]

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#124

Post by Alcor »

elvin_d wrote: post #74
jupp0r wrote: post #54

"The actual greenhouse gas emissions depend on the energy mix used for charging the batteries, but as long as we do not have abundant climate-neutral energy, it makes sense to save energy by driving at lower speeds." This argument (often also applied to the size of cars) is something I often read. It's an instance of the perfectionist fallacy. Electric cars are more harmful than gasoline powered cars if the energy th…

FYI https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-electric-cars-really-better...

https://archive.vn/LssUq

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#125

Post by [deleted] »

superice wrote: post #114

The problem I have with this is always the “when is it enough”? Setting is speed limit of 130 is not unreasonable. But the exact same arguments apply for a speed limit of 120. Or 100. Or 80. Or 60. Or 30. It basically the same as the Apple CSAM issue: where is acceptable to impose restrictions to freedom, or to impose inconvenience, for a marginal improvement to safety. It’s frustrating to see essentially the same is…

[deleted]

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#126

Post by nottorp »

D13Fd wrote: post #72
jupp0r wrote: post #54

"The actual greenhouse gas emissions depend on the energy mix used for charging the batteries, but as long as we do not have abundant climate-neutral energy, it makes sense to save energy by driving at lower speeds." This argument (often also applied to the size of cars) is something I often read. It's an instance of the perfectionist fallacy. Electric cars are more harmful than gasoline powered cars if the energy th…

> Electric cars are more harmful than gasoline powered cars if the energy they are powered by comes from coal plants. This has been debunked over and over. Even EV’s charged by coal power plants have lower lifetime emissions than similarly-situated gasoline vehicles.

It simply doesn't matter. You can replace the source of electricity of an EV without building a new EV and the emissions will drop.

You can't do the same with a gas powered car.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#127

Post by nottorp »

Hmm. I don't live in Germany but drove across a couple times. For one there are speed limits around cities and on busy stretches. They even have dynamically adjusted speed limits on electronic panels.

And two, I've generally seen traffic going at most 160. In a country with an 130 speed limit you can still go 160 if you want. Especially if you know where the speed cameras are.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#128

Post by rad_gruchalski »

Retric wrote: post #79
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slow drivers not paying attention kill other drivers. As proven by all fatalities in countries without such speed differences. Yes, I get the kinetic energy argument. Lack of attention while driving is the real killer. Speed can be a factor.

Fast drivers not paying attention are again much more dangerous because they over take other drivers and need to respond accordingly. Slow drivers on the other hand are being overtaken and so their inattention is rarely an issue for others on a freeway.

There are fast drivers and reckless drivers. The latter ones are indeed dangerous, the former ones are usually more alert.

Of course, from an outsider perspective it is difficult to distinguish.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#129

Post by blitzar »

kmlx wrote: post #113
bluecalm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a solution which EU is actually implementing: automatic speed limiters in every car. Unfortunately the auto industry lobbies successfully to delay it and cripple it so instead of having it obligatory in every car 10 years ago we will have a crippled version of it in some cars (new ones) starting in a year. It's a start though. 20 more years and the problem will be solved.

> automatic speed limiters in every car. this is literally the nightmare of every driver.

How are you going to get laid if you cant demonstrate your ability to go fast in a car to members of the opposite sex?

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#130

Post by Retric »

wolrah wrote: post #103
Retric wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t symmetric. Being X kph faster than traffic is significantly more risky than being X kph slower than traffic. It’s that damn Velocity squared term that always fucks things up.

> It isn’t symmetric. Being X kph faster than traffic is significantly more risky than being X kph slower than traffic. You're neglecting one very important fact: A driver who is correctly taking advantages of the freedom of a derestricted section, following all the rules and driving fast "the right way" doesn't interfere with other traffic at all. Likewise for a driver who is driving in the same manner on equivalent…

There’s an apples to oranges argument here.

Someone driving slow can force other drivers to deal with them.

Someone driving fast avoids problems when they slow down to avoid traffic. If they don’t slow down when all lanes have someone in them …

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