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Time to end the war on drugs

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31–40 of 217 posts

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#31
If drugs are legalized the United States will be forced to dream up and create other reasons to keep its military outposts in hundreds of countries. This is why we maintain a war on drugs. A war that is impossible to win. The United States will never legalize drugs.

PS I'm with richard Branson, but he is being naive or he is not mentioning these elements on purpose as a strategy.

Edit; Forgot to mention the United States Prison-Industrial Complex- that is even more anti-legalize momentum that would have to be addressed.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#32

A friend shared this link on Facebook, and I read through the article. I was very interested to note that Richard Branson bases much of his argument on the reduction in drug use in Portugal since the policy change decriminalizing possession of small amounts of drugs for personal use and referring users to medical treatment. Is this the societal consensus in other countries? Are most advocates of ending "the war on dr…

The problem is that we're going the other way in The Netherlands right now.

The red light district is being slowly dismantled [1], new draconian laws are being introduced to shut the coffee shops down (with a Think Of The Children argument) [2] and foreigners are being banned from using coffee shops [3].

I blame the ageing population: the "boomers" [4] have had their fun, but they're getting older now and young people getting high only "disturbs" the peace. They're the biggest voting block, so they get their way (yet again).

So yeah, I don't see the Western world changing any time soon.

[1] http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-15/netherlands-stop...

[2] (sorry I couldn't find an English language version) http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/onderwijs/publicaties/ar...

[3] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8961513/Amsterd...

[4] They've even got their own party: http://50pluspartij.nl/

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#34
post #25
post #8

I don't understand how a world where making/selling something is a crime but consuming is not could work.

It seems to me that prostitution is de facto largely treated this way in the U.S. In most cases, they don't arrest the johns or pimps but they do arrest the prostitutes. Technically, both are illegal but enforcement has a tendency to be one-sided. From what I gather, proving a pimp has committed a crime is much harder than proving a prostitute has and although the clients are also breaking the law in most U.S. states…

I've always thought of that as backwards.

In most cases, a prostitute is forced to work as slave labor by the controlling pimp. That makes her the victim. Without customers to pull money in (the Johns), she would make no income for her pimp.

Once one instead follows the money, we realize that we can starve this trade by punishing the ones who have money (the Johns) and can dissuade prostitutes by making their somewhat forced career choice legal.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#35
post #2

Even coming from a respectable industry leader like Richard Branson, this will almost certainly be ignored. Here's an interesting question: what would end the war on drugs? Is it something that can be made to happen by sane, enterprising individuals?

Get a company like Monsanto interested in the commercial cultivation of marijuana and it'll be legal within the day.

Even now in the US, moneyed interests don't necessarily get everything they want --- AT&T couldn't push through the T-mobile merger, to cite a much less controversial example.

In this case, there would be money on both sides. The drug war itself is a massive industry at this point --- look at the power of prison guards in California. There are also a whole lot of politicians with a massive ego stake in the existing set of laws. And Monsanto, the tobacco companies, and agribusiness all have much easier and less stressful ways to preserve profits by lobbying. (Maintaining agricultural subsidies, for the first two, for starters.)

So, don't expect this to happen really soon.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#36
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread about exactly what Portugal did, and the ramifications for the U.S. in terms of time-frame and difficulty.

What Portugal did was decriminalize the possession of small amounts of drugs. They did not legalize them. There is a huge difference. Decriminalization essentially means that possession of small amounts of drugs is no longer an offense that warrants an arrest and jail time. In a decriminalized system an officer can still stop someone for drugs, but they can only write them a ticket- similar to speeding, jaywalking or illegal parking.

This makes a huge difference for a number of reasons. First, it's easier to implement politically because the substances are still illegal. Second, it's less costly because people caught with small amounts are not caught up in the justice system for years, and only pay a small fine. Third, it decreases the adversarial nature of the "war on drugs" because being caught with drugs is no longer a life-changing event.

Marijuana possession is already decriminalized in many states in the U.S. (California, Colorado, New York and Oregon off the top of my head). It is clearly not an impossibility to implement politically, and in fact the trend in the U.S. is already on its way. An important hurdle is that we do not have any states that have yet decriminalized "harder" drugs like heroin and cocaine, but it is simply a matter of time. Pressure on lawmakers in the form of education, money and votes will in fact work. It just takes time.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#37
Great article. I would like to further suggest we end the use of the word "war" in contexts that do not involve mandatory conscription and the deaths of large numbers of combatants until one side totally surrenders. (This implies there is a "side" to be able to surrender.) Politicians have so destroyed the word "war" that it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion about any use of violence by the state. Perhaps that was the goal. Don't know.

Drug use is a health-related issue, whether it is a doctor prescribing medications, a patient taking meds off-label, a person self-medicating, an addict, or some kind experimentation. All of these situations are much more personal health concerns than public safety concerns. Yes, addiction is a terrible tragedy and sometimes danger for the rest of us -- but it's a personal disaster a long time before it affects any of us. I'd argue that in the aggregate most addicts suffer a lot more personally than any damage they inflict on society.

We have a caricatured view of the drug addict -- the unwashed, illiterate, toothless junkie hiding out in a crack house. Yes, addiction ends up that way for some, but by and large addicts are middle-class, educated, and live in houses with their friends or families. Hollywood and moralists have done us a great disservice by putting these horrible outlier pictures in people's heads when they think of drug use. Take for instance the word "addict", which like the word "war" is such a broad term that it doesn't have much meaning on it's own without further clarification. One side wants you to believe that all drug use consists of PhDs smoking pot while talking astronomy. The other side wants you to believe that all drug use ends in addiction and death. People need to stop with the histrionics.

I support legalization, although I am extremely cautious personally when it comes to drug use. I might support criminalization of dealing hard drugs. I'd have to think about it a bit. But declaring "war" on our own population is a pretty idiotic way to spend our social resources if you ask me. Just like the "war on poverty," the "war on illiteracy," the "war on obesity," and the "culture war," enough with the wars already.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#38

This is literally copy-paste from Time magazine 2009. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.ht... Excellent work, Dick.

Uh, you might want to look up the word "literally". I don't even find them terribly similar.

Actually, the part where he details the stats is practically verbatim. There are some nuances between both articles, but he could have provided a link to his sources. It always helps to learn more.

Edit: After completing the Times article and rereading R. Branson's, I can confirm that the general flow is the same. In some parts, he only just paraphrases or summarizes, but the information is really the same.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#39
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that prostitution is de facto largely treated this way in the U.S. In most cases, they don't arrest the johns or pimps but they do arrest the prostitutes. Technically, both are illegal but enforcement has a tendency to be one-sided. From what I gather, proving a pimp has committed a crime is much harder than proving a prostitute has and although the clients are also breaking the law in most U.S. states…

I've always thought of that as backwards. In most cases, a prostitute is forced to work as slave labor by the controlling pimp. That makes her the victim. Without customers to pull money in (the Johns), she would make no income for her pimp. Once one instead follows the money, we realize that we can starve this trade by punishing the ones who have money (the Johns) and can dissuade prostitutes by making their somewha…

Not saying it's right, just that it's done. Routinely.

I'm not real political. I haven't studied it too thoroughly, so I am disinclined to make strong recommendations one way or the other. But I'm female and I have some difficulty wrapping my brain around the idea that a man can spend gobs of money on an expensive restaurant and movie and gifts to try to get into my pants but can't legally give me cash up front after asking nicely if I am amenable to such an arrangement. I generally think it would be best if prostitution were decriminalized. I am hesitant to speak to that overly much in public because my views on such topics tend to go over extremely badly with both genders.

Also, if I saw compelling data indicating that decriminalization would cause worse problems, I would be inclined to go with "whatever works for the greater good". However, I doubt I will see such data. Most studies are pretty poorly done. I find few of them all that compelling. For the moment, that leaves me with "This makes no sense to me." as a simple personal opinion.

Suffice it to say, if your recommendation could be implemented and did not turn out to have unexpected hidden social costs (in terms of causing problems), I would support it. With the proviso that I see no reason to actively try to dissuade prostitutes from making their living that way if they so choose. However, it would make it more feasible for them to change career paths if it were not illegal and I am for that. I have seen some things that indicate that difficulty in transitioning to other (legal) work is one of the things which keeps them trapped. Admitting you are a hooker doesn't exactly look good on a resume.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#40
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get a company like Monsanto interested in the commercial cultivation of marijuana and it'll be legal within the day.

Companies such as Monsanto and DuPont (not to mention a host of others) are among the ones that were glad to see hemp made illegal back in the 1930's. Any hemp-based economy is a threat to centralized industrial concerns. With the invention of the hemp decorticator in the 1910's (the cotton gin of hemp) by George Schlichten, hemp's potential as an industrial crop to replace petroleum was unlocked. Large, centralized…

> hemp's potential as an industrial crop to replace petroleum was unlocked.

Could you clarify this statement? Are you saying hemp can be efficiently used as a fuel?

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