Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

cnbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 294 posts

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#191

Post by intrasight »

totalZero wrote: post #99
adam_arthur wrote: post #63

Onshoring is a logical result of improved automation. When labor costs lessen, transportation and logistics become the primary concern. Wouldn’t be surprised if 100 years from now most final good assembly is done locally. Of course sometimes raw materials and inputs are more expensive to transport than the finished good, so there will always be cases where long distance transportation of finished products is still pr…

It would make more sense to put the mega-fabs where electricity is cheapest in the Americas, and that certainly isn't Arizona.

Also, I would think that lots of water is needed, and Arizona is pretty dry.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#192

Post by tony_cannistra »

throwntoday wrote: post #177
tony_cannistra wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it wouldn't solve the problem permanently. The folks who wrote the Colorado River Compact thought they were solving the problem of dividing the river's water permanently, too. They made it worse. I don't disagree that economics are a critical part of this conversation. But I don't understand how you're making the argument that enabling more water use, not less, is cost effective. Even amortized across 50 year…

I don't think you appreciate just how much water the northern part of the continent has.

Actually, I do. I've lived there.

Generally speaking, substantial alterations to hydrological regimes can cause deleterious cascading ecological effects. Just look toward the literature on the hydrological (and consequential ecological) effects of dams (necessary to divert water) for examples.

One of particular interest is dams' tendency to reduce the frequency and severity of flooding events, which are characteristically necessary for much of the functioning of floodplain ecosystems such as those you're describing.

Such reductions can wreak havoc on biodiversity in these regions.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#193

Post by philwelch »

richardwhiuk wrote: post #130
adam_arthur wrote: post #63

Onshoring is a logical result of improved automation. When labor costs lessen, transportation and logistics become the primary concern. Wouldn’t be surprised if 100 years from now most final good assembly is done locally. Of course sometimes raw materials and inputs are more expensive to transport than the finished good, so there will always be cases where long distance transportation of finished products is still pr…

This isn't onshoring - onshoring would be moving to Taiwan - this is the Taiwanese Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation.

It’s onshoring from the perspective of an American company that contracts out to TSMC fabs, such as Apple, AMD, nVidia, Marvell, Qualcomm, or other major TSMC clients. Sony is also a TSMC client so if TSMC built fabs in Japan, Sony would be onshoring.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#194

Post by icey »

tony_cannistra wrote: post #50
_8j50 wrote: post #45

Don't these fabs need like an insane amount of water? Why would they build it of all places in arizona which as far as I know barely meets drinking water requirements (at least at some cities) and is basically mostly a desert?

I came here for this comment. Thank you for bringing this up. Although Phoenix is one of America's most progressive cities with regard to minimizing per-capita water usage, the whole prospect of the city of Phoenix was ill-conceived from the beginning. Of course that doesn't matter now -- the city is there. But I hope that TSMC knows what they're getting themselves in to.

There have been people living where Phoenix sits today for at least 1,500 years. The canals in Phoenix were originally dug by the Hohokam 1,400+ years ago. Dutch settlers used what remained to design the canal system that's used today. Here's a cool article that describes some of what they built http://www.azheritagewaters.nau.edu/loc_hohokam.html

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#195

Post by JumpCrisscross »

totalZero wrote: post #99
adam_arthur wrote: post #63

Onshoring is a logical result of improved automation. When labor costs lessen, transportation and logistics become the primary concern. Wouldn’t be surprised if 100 years from now most final good assembly is done locally. Of course sometimes raw materials and inputs are more expensive to transport than the finished good, so there will always be cases where long distance transportation of finished products is still pr…

It would make more sense to put the mega-fabs where electricity is cheapest in the Americas, and that certainly isn't Arizona.

> would make more sense to put the mega-fabs where electricity is cheapest in the Americas, and that certainly isn't Arizona

Geologically stable. And at least for business, politically stable. Same reason Walt Disney is frozen in Phoenix [1].

[1] https://www.alcor.org/

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#196

Post by wewtyflakes »

pfortuny wrote: post #179
thehappypm wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

146 MW on average is still more than this facility needs.

Not during the night and not when it is cloudy. Averages are vey bad numbers for something which is on 24/7.

Do the plants typically run at night? Also, doesn't the capacity factor account for these variations already?

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#197

Post by Turing_Machine »

pfortuny wrote: post #179
thehappypm wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

146 MW on average is still more than this facility needs.

Not during the night and not when it is cloudy. Averages are vey bad numbers for something which is on 24/7.

And definitely not if the clouds suddenly blow in when the process is at a critical stage.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#198

Post by r00fus »

briffle wrote: post #149
thechao wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many ways, ASML: https://www.asml.com/en/products/euv-lithography-systems

ASML is the very high end, but there are many other manufacturers as well. Canon and Nikon both make lithography systems used in many wafer fabs.

I really doubt anyone else than ASML can do 4nm (which this factory is planned to target).

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#199

Post by Turing_Machine »

wewtyflakes wrote: post #196
pfortuny wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not during the night and not when it is cloudy. Averages are vey bad numbers for something which is on 24/7.

Do the plants typically run at night? Also, doesn't the capacity factor account for these variations already?

No, you would need a large storage facility as well.

A nameplate capacity of 550 MW with a capacity factor of only 26% almost certainly means there are a lot of times when it isn't generating any power at all, or at least none to speak of.

Re: TSMC ups Arizona investment from $12B to $40B with second semi fab

#200

Post by r00fus »

thehappypm wrote: post #172
eitally wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing you don't mention is that Arizona is wasting other people's water -- nearly 40% is sourced from rivers originating in other mountainous states https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts

Do you mean the Colorado River? The one that flows through the Grand Canyon? The canyon in Arizona?

Yes, the Colorado River whose headwaters comes from the state of Colorado.
Post reply on HN