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No one wants to have kids anymore

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Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#301

Post by D13Fd »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #117
thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention that this represents a very median case, whereas a lot of parents want to pay for higher status schools and real estate to get access to higher status education, it's a never-ending keeping-up-with-the-joneses pi*-ing contest. To raise kids around my peers, a child could easily cost $500k+.

Pregnancy and birth ($3k to $10k) + daycare ($18k to $30k per year) + sickness needing doctor ($300 per visit). I probably got to $130k+ per kid before hitting kindergarten, for 2 kids with no chronic healthcare needs. And I needed a flexible job that allows you to work from home or be off as necessary to take care of sick kids.

This looks right for what it lists but it misses many costs. You also need a bigger house to support the kids, and a bigger car to carry them around, plus car seats, food, clothes, toys, and furniture. They will destroy parts of your house and some of your stuff and you'll need replacements. You'll be spending much more time and money cleaning.

They will make every vacation more expensive in terms of lodging, travel, food, and activities.

You'll be paying not just for gifts for them, but for their friends' birthdays, and holiday gifts for their teachers. You'll pay for admission to parks, memberships, and other activities you take them to to keep them busy and help them develop.

Even if they go to public school, you'll be paying for before and after care, extra classes, activities, equipment, lessons, tutoring, and so on. Their various support systems will ask for donations. You'll have to pay for babysitters until they reach the age where they can be unattended.

The total cost is tremendous and hard to estimate.

(I say this all as someone who thinks it is worth it and who 100% supports having children for people who are in stable relationships and who can afford it!)

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#302

Post by DonHopkins »

RHSeeger wrote: post #296
rapsey wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how you can freely call parents shells of their former selves or slaves to their children or whatever you find online. But soon as you express your opinion on people who chose not to have children you are suddenly a judgemental asshole.

They said that many of their coworkers that had children seem like shells of their former selves. Not all of them, and not by definition. You are saying that anyone that doesn't have children automatically empty and sad. - One of the statements is "in the people I've seen do x, an outcome of y seems common". - The other is "in any person that does x, y is true" Those are not the same thing.

Including his own children being empty and sad if they don't deliver him grandchildren. That's just terrible parenting, to be so judgemental and demeaning of your own children.

Edit:

Then address my question instead of ignoring it. Why by your own judgemental attitude would your own children be any less empty and sad than anyone else if they chose not to reproduce themselves? And how are you not being a bad judgemental parent with that attitude? Don't have kids if you're not willing to let them make their own decisions.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#303

Post by D13Fd »

jlokier wrote: post #198
dustedcodes wrote: post #80

I know this is going to be a hugely unpopular opinion, but life has no purpose if it was not for offspring. To me not wanting children gives me the same vibes as someone playing a sport or entering a competition and then not giving their absolute everything to win Gold.

Most people play sport to enjoy the game, not to become champions at it. What about having offspring gives life purpose? Do you just beget children to... help them grow up to beget more children so they can... help their children to beget more children so... That doesn't sound (or vibe) purposeful to me. That description is obviously missing something essential. If life has a purpose (or feeling/vibe of one) there mu…

> What about having offspring gives life purpose?

Each child is basically a project that you spend lots of time working on and care about deeply.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#304

Post by rapsey »

RHSeeger wrote: post #296
rapsey wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how you can freely call parents shells of their former selves or slaves to their children or whatever you find online. But soon as you express your opinion on people who chose not to have children you are suddenly a judgemental asshole.

They said that many of their coworkers that had children seem like shells of their former selves. Not all of them, and not by definition. You are saying that anyone that doesn't have children automatically empty and sad. - One of the statements is "in the people I've seen do x, an outcome of y seems common". - The other is "in any person that does x, y is true" Those are not the same thing.

> You are saying that anyone that doesn't have children automatically empty and sad.

No I am saying that is what they seem to me. Just like people with children are shells of their former selves to him. You are splitting hairs and putting words in my mouth to make an obvious point. In the end you are just proving me right that one can not express any kind of negative about being childless without having people jump down their throats.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#305

Post by D13Fd »

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #116

My personal experience - and I've heard many others repeat the same sentiment: When you're single, your happiness levels typically range on a scale from 0 to 10. Once you get married, that range expands to run from -100 to +100. Then when you have kids, all the limits are removed.

This is great, although I'd say single ranges from -10 to 10.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#306

Post by unsupp0rted »

shijie wrote: post #238
unsupp0rted wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone could guarantee that I'll have healthy children, physically, mentally and emotionally, then sure I'll put up with reduced sleep and baby vomit. Oh and that I'll have a partner who will stay healthy (and loyal) for the 15 ~ 25 years it takes to turn a child into a self-sustaining responsible adult. But as it stands that's a game of Russian Roulette that I'm not willing to play.

As someone going through a horrible divorce, replete with custody fights and the whole nine yards, I’d still say that you’re thinking about this wrong. I am the father of a three-year-old girl. I would go through my marriage a thousand times, complete with abuse and emotional trauma, if it meant I could get my daughter in the end. I’ve found that happiness has never been found by endeavoring to avoid any and all pote…

> Find a partner that is emotionally resilient, calm under pressure, and has a desire to continually better themselves, then go for it.

It sounds like you're blessed (whether in the religious or random probability sense) with a daughter who is your joy. The worst partner and the ugliest divorce in the world can't offset that.

I have no assurance that I'll be similarly blessed, and I don't want to roll those dice, because I have no idea to what degree the game is rigged against me, genetically, environmentally and circumstantially speaking.

Adults can marry, get along, fight with, or divorce adults. But once there's a child in the mix one's hands are tied.

If it's a healthy, loving and developing child, it might all be worth it. The odds of that are not only unknowable, they're relatively risky.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#307

Post by D13Fd »

naasking wrote: post #227
D13Fd wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Real parents consistently make it clear how terrible having kids is. What world do you live in? I have 4 (soon to be 5) kids myself and I’m happy with my choices. I know many families with kids, and only a small percentage seem unhappy, similar to most other life choices.

> I know many families with kids, and only a small percentage seem unhappy, similar to most other life choices. "Seem" is the keyword. People successfully hide suicidal depression from close friends and family, so I'm not sure why you think people can't hide mild unhappiness.

If they "seem" happy, then they are not "consistently mak[ing] it clear how terrible having kids is."

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#308

Post by D13Fd »

dagw wrote: post #284
D13Fd wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “The low-sleep phase is temporary.” Nope. “Same goes for changing diapers” Nope. Huh? Does your child have an issue where they never grow out of diapers? For the vast majority of people, the diaper phase is temporary.

For the vast majority of people, the diaper phase is temporary. Sure, but it is far from a guarantee. And you should at least be aware of that.

I guess. What is the percentage of people who have to wear diapers their whole life? I don't know but it has to be a small fraction of a percent.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#309

Post by t-3 »

p2detar wrote: post #18
chiefalchemist wrote: post #5

I think it cliche to believe it's strictly a financial decision. In fact, in the West (afaik) the middle and upper class have a lower birth rates than those below them. Not to get subjective and fuzzy but children are a symbol of hope and promise. Any reasonable adult who is considering children has to ask themselve how to answer when the child asks, "Why? Why did you bring me into *this* world?" Who has a good answe…

I used to think like that, but not anymore. The parents must not answer this question. They must not even attempt to do it. It's up to the children, who have their whole lives before them, to look for an answer. And that's the whole point.

Yes, and the children who have grown are answering "I won't do that to another generation".

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#310

Post by rapsey »

DonHopkins wrote: post #302
RHSeeger wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said that many of their coworkers that had children seem like shells of their former selves. Not all of them, and not by definition. You are saying that anyone that doesn't have children automatically empty and sad. - One of the statements is "in the people I've seen do x, an outcome of y seems common". - The other is "in any person that does x, y is true" Those are not the same thing.

Including his own children being empty and sad if they don't deliver him grandchildren. That's just terrible parenting, to be so judgemental and demeaning of your own children. Edit: Then address my question instead of ignoring it. Why by your own judgemental attitude would your own children be any less empty and sad than anyone else if they chose not to reproduce themselves? And how are you not being a bad judgement…

Nice straw man you have built here.

I did not answer your question because it is absurd. There is a difference between having an opinion and forcing that opinion on others. My children are their own people and they are allowed to disagree and I will not hold it against them. Because I love them more than they can understand until they have children themselves. I however hope they will be confident and flexible in their opinions and change them if they prove a poor fit to reality and not resort to logical fallacies or grudges.

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