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It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

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281–290 of 704 posts

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender identity and sexual orientation are different concepts. Exploring gender identity is not the same as exploring sexuality. Children are constantly exploring identity, as I'm sure you have observed. For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I saw that other people incorporated these activities in the…

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This is a straw man.

1. This is not a good faith representation of what trans people are arguing for; no one is saying that playing with dolls makes you trans.

2. Trans healthcare for kids does not involve surgery. Surgeries are not performed for people under the age of 18. Trans healthcare for kids largely involves letting them choose what clothes they wear, pronouns they use, perhaps changing their name. The most that might happen is that they take puberty blockers, a reversible and safe treatment.

3. I can see why people would be upset by your straw man, were it the reality, but trans people are not an abomination, and directing dehumanizing language towards a group of people who are frequently targeted for violence is profoundly not okay. It's been less than 3 weeks since a terrorist entered an LGBTQ nightclub in Colorado Springs and opened fire, and this has happened more times than anyone can count; don't contribute to this. And your straw man is just that.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#282
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "trans/gay/lesbian is cool now" explanation doesn't hold a lot of water to me. If I had the choice to not be gay, I wouldn't be. Life would be so much easier, emotionally and otherwise. Sex would be lower risk and it would be much easier to find a romantic partner. I spent a long time - two decades - suppressing it, as hard as I could, and it did not go away. Instead I was anxious and depressed. After I started t…

It is "cool" inside a very small, but very powerful, stratum of society. You are right that there are still a lot of places where being queer (whether of the LGB or T variety) is a huge disadvantage.

Even within that stratum, I'd argue that it's more "acceptable" than specifically "cool". Or if it is "cool", it's in a superficial sort of way that doesn't relay any real benefits or privilege.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I am transgender and i have done actual research on transgenderism a couple years back. I have seen this firsthand on some acquaintances. Social media has a massive influence on people and there are some persons specifically that have a weaker sense of identity (usually associated with poor development or some mental disorder like schizophrenia, STPD, or BPD), and those persons can be influenced to the po…

Parent might be falsely inferring an over-representation of GD from the statistical discrepancy between younger and older age groups of those who identify as LGTBQ+.

IIRC, research also shows that those who identify as trans in middle age are much more likely to be happy when they do choose to transition, compared to the younger folks.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#284
post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

You're already getting swamped but I wanna take this bit in good faith: > illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented If it was true that gender dysphoria had a major "social contagion" component, what would you want to do about that? Censor speech so children can't discuss gender? Like how some people think censor sex ed was a treatment for teen pregnancy? Put up bureaucratic barriers…

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Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what the fuck would be the problem if GenZ had an "over-representation" of LGBT?! We don't live in the dark ages, almost all Western constitutions have some sort of "freedom of expression" on their books. Just let people live their lifes however they want to do it, as long as they don't harm anybody. Trans people or kissing gays on the street don't harm anyone but the feelings of some poor Conservatives who are s…

One potential danger is that some of the more extreme therapies for gender transition are permanent and work best when used early. If a person's trans orientation is the result of a poorly formed sense of identity, as alleged by the article, there's a stronger chance they may change their mind later, after irreversible harm has been wrought. In other words, there's a chance that some kids may not be "really" trans, b…

> One potential danger is that some of the more extreme therapies for gender transition are permanent and work best when used early.

There is virtually only one, and that's puberty blockers, stuff that has been used for decades to treat precocious puberty. We know these medicines are safe and we also know that nature will run its course again all by itself after the medicines are left out.

Genital surgery, the second option, is extremely rare in people under 18, and most of it is done on inter-gender children shortly after birth which is a grave mistake anyway and some countries have banned that as a result [1].

And in any case: Puberty blockers are reversible - puberty itself is not. Some things (e.g. the growth of breast tissue) can be reversed but at a high cost, some like the vocal cords changing for hormonal males cannot be reversed at all. It is way, way better for trans children to not force them through puberty.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-lgbt-health-idUSK...

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This is a straw man. 1. This is not a good faith representation of what trans people are arguing for; no one is saying that playing with dolls makes you trans. 2. Trans healthcare for kids does not involve surgery. Surgeries are not performed for people under the age of 18. Trans healthcare for kids largely involves letting them choose what clothes they wear, pronouns they use, perhaps changing their name. The most t…

> no one is saying

That's a rather extreme claim, don't you think? There's been a significant shift in recent years from "gender fluid" behavior being considered a matter of expression, to it being regarded as an almost mandatory matter of identity - either as a sign of identifying with the opposite gender, or as being "non binary".

> Trans healthcare for kids does not involve surgery.

The heavy medicalization of "trans healthcare" creates a rigid path from "affirmation" of the supposedly expressed gender, to puberty blockers/hormones, to surgical reassignment. There are significant social drawbacks for those who choose to stray, since 'community' support is conditional on picking the "right" choices at any given step.

> I can see why people would be upset by your straw man, were it the reality, but trans people are not an abomination

The latter is not something I ever said, of course. You might be pattern-matching my comment with things that are just not there. I agree that most trans people just want to live their lives and not be at risk for violence, but this much is obvious. In general, the most extreme "activism" on either side gets a lot of visibility while being unrepresentative of what real people think.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a straw man. 1. This is not a good faith representation of what trans people are arguing for; no one is saying that playing with dolls makes you trans. 2. Trans healthcare for kids does not involve surgery. Surgeries are not performed for people under the age of 18. Trans healthcare for kids largely involves letting them choose what clothes they wear, pronouns they use, perhaps changing their name. The most t…

> no one is saying That's a rather extreme claim, don't you think? There's been a significant shift in recent years from "gender fluid" behavior being considered a matter of expression , to it being regarded as an almost mandatory matter of identity - either as a sign of identifying with the opposite gender, or as being "non binary". > Trans healthcare for kids does not involve surgery. The heavy medicalization of "t…

> There's been a significant shift in recent years from "gender fluid" behavior being considered a matter of expression, to it being regarded as an almost mandatory

Who exactly is arguing that it is mandatory to be gender fluid? I've never heard such a thing.

What I do hear trans people arguing for is that they have a right to exist, that they are under threat of violence, and that the require awareness of their condition and protection under the law as a matter of survival.

> The heavy medicalization of "trans healthcare" creates a rigid path from "affirmation" of the supposedly expressed gender, to puberty blockers/hormones, to surgical reassignment. There are significant social drawbacks for those who choose to stray, since 'community' support is conditional on picking the "right" choices at any given step.

You're just kinda putting quotes on things to make them sound scary. Do you object to surgery, or surgery being performed on children? If teenagers go on puberty blockers, and they decide they don't want to pursue surgery when they become adults - no worries, no surgery was performed. If they become adults, having considered the decision for a long time at this point - by what you were saying before now, that would seem to be okay; you were saying it was an unacceptable to impose a surgery on children, are you now saying that this isn't a choice you're ever okay with? I'm starting to get the feeling maybe you just feel trans people are unacceptable in general and that, whatever they did, you would disapprove of it.

I'm not deeply involved with the LGBTQ community, but I'm confident none of the people I know would bully someone who decided against transitioning. And none of the LGBTQ communities I've ever intersected with have been stingy or withholding of their support; they're happy to discuss my feelings about gender with me, for example, though I'm a straight man with a "by the book" gender presentation (and I have my frustrations with my gender and the expectations that come with it all the same, which I'm sure many men can relate to).

I'm sure there are toxic personalities within these communities, but it is certainly not the norm or generally tolerated, as bullying exists in virtually all communities but generally is not tolerated.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#288
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender.” It’s impossible to have the idea that you want to be another “gender” unless you have learned to want it. The ideas of “gender” and that you can switch yours have to come from somewhere; you have to learn them. Just as: you can’t want to be a doctor unless you’ve learned that there is such a thing as a doctor and that it’s something…

Very confident to assert that this act of imagination is impossible, that nobody in history has ever spontaneously had the idea of trying on another gender's gender-marker clothing and worked from there.

Did this somebody from history also spontaneously know that the clothes were markers of another gender?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gender identity and sexual orientation are different concepts. Exploring gender identity is not the same as exploring sexuality. While true, to be fair GP was responding to this: >>> " For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to *heteronormativity*. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their *sexuality*." [emphasis mine] To muddy th…

Kinks are impossible to pin down or fence in, people can get turned on by literally anything. https://xkcd.com/468/ This doesn't really muddy the waters; the concepts remain distinct, and people making it a kink to conflate them is kinda like how a joke isn't true but is only funny if you know the truth it refers to. Heteronormativity conflates gender and sexuality; I'd guess (while acknowledging I don't know the con…

> Kinks are impossible to pin down or fence in, people can get turned on by literally anything.

While a true statement it's also a non-sequitur. Anglosphere society is roiled with social turmoil about trans-gender identity. One faction would like society to recognize that some people's gender does not fit their sex, and to normalize accommodating these people's gender expression without intrusive and oppressive questioning. Another faction, perhaps motivated by genuine concern, or perhaps by simple hatred of difference and change, throw a spanner into the works by asking hard questions about bathrooms and prisons and athletics and such. If the only people interested in entering women's bathrooms and prisons were genuinely only women who happened to be born in a male body, then everything would be clear and unmuddied. However, the existence of some fraction of men who would happily identify as women in order to gain easier sexual access to women does complicate the simple distinction. Is a trans woman lesbian with a penis really trans, or a predatory man with a kink? Ignoring or dismissing the muddy implications of the question will not make the second faction go away.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent might be falsely inferring an over-representation of GD from the statistical discrepancy between younger and older age groups of those who identify as LGTBQ+.

IIRC, research also shows that those who identify as trans in middle age are much more likely to be happy when they do choose to transition, compared to the younger folks.

Is there any statistical significance to that. Have the emotional baggage and social complexity younger people are dealing with and the share of middle aged people who did or could not transition been accounted for?
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