It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#141

Post by mcv » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 12:59 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #42

gadders wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck it, I'll take the karma hit. I am of course referring to young girls identifying as male/non-binary. I'm sure some of the cases are genuine, but not all. And I'm not saying these girls aren't troubled or have other things going on that they need help with.

I appreciate your being willing to speak your mind without hiding behind vaguery. We can risk a karma hit together. You are referring to a myth called "Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria," which has been debunked. Gender identity is not a socially transmitted pathology. I don't believe you meant this in a hateful way, but let me explain what the problem is with this idea. This is sophistry about how LGBTQ people should rem…

This is an issue I'm somewhat concerned about.

Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people, and has helped people from depression, possibly suicidal, to a much happier state, and that's great. It's vital we don't lose that.

At the same time, it's been politicised; there's a lot of conservative pushback claiming this isn't real, leading to resistance against this pushback, where I wonder if some people may sympathise with transgender people to the point that they also identify as transgender despite a lack of gender dysphoria, and that might create a fad that might cause more people to transition and later regret it.

Gender dysphoria is a serious medical issue, and should not be a fad or a cultural or political issue. Transitioning is effective treatment, and not some fun thing to do like getting a tattoo, nor should it be considered an assault on anyone's cultural, religious or political beliefs.

And if it really is happening more to girls than boys, maybe consider if cultural sexism might cause some women to not want to identify as such anymore. Especially in the face of issues like rape, bodily autonomy, but also acceptable jobs and behaviours. Maybe we should be more tolerant of cross-dressing.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#142

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 12:59 PM UTC

(content warning)

It's not commonly discussed, but suicide seems to be a "sociogenic illness" in that reporting on suicides as such can cause more suicides. You may have noticed this in the reporting on celebrity deaths; a young person who "dies suddenly" may be suicide, but news reports will tend to avoid saying that out of concern for the sociogenic effects.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#143

Post by bsaul » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:00 PM UTC

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

Indeed. It seems pretty obvious to anyone that has ever witnessed a high school hall that teenagers mimic far more than just clothes. Fashion goes way beyond that.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#144

Post by bognition » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:00 PM UTC

xd wrote: post #127

dsiegel2275 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "pushing heteronormativity" doesn't need to be a conscious, deliberate act and it doesn't need to be anything related to sex. It can be as simple as a parent buying their son a toy truck for their birthday while buying a barbie doll for their daughter: a reinforcement of socially acceptable gender roles

I've never known a kid to not ask for toys they prefer.. you make the simple act of giving a child a gift sound sinister.. what a world we live in.

It's not sinister in the slightest, but people should understand the larger picture.

Where do those preferences come from? I've seen first hand the impact that media, advertising, and social pressures at school have had on my children's preferences.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#145

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #138

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

“nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender.” It’s impossible to have the idea that you want to be another “gender” unless you have learned to want it. The ideas of “gender” and that you can switch yours have to come from somewhere; you have to learn them. Just as: you can’t want to be a doctor unless you’ve learned that there is such a thing as a doctor and that it’s something…

Very confident to assert that this act of imagination is impossible, that nobody in history has ever spontaneously had the idea of trying on another gender's gender-marker clothing and worked from there.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#146

Post by mschuster91 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

kome wrote: post #62

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

very very good point. and anecdotally, i think it's indeed the case for gender dysphoria... btw, not long ago there was a sociologist from columbia, working on the autism epidemics, pointing out how autism is "contagious" among parents https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0003122411399389 - so it's not for the first time that we point out at the sociogenesis of mental illness

Hell no it's not. Gender non-conforming people have been a staple throughout human history, with examples dating back to at least the 2nd century AD [1], and not just in Europe but in South Asia as well [2].

The thing is, many societies didn't care for a long time, and only in the 20th century repression really took off with the rise of ultra-fundamentalist religions. Now we're seeing the backlash against that and people obviously are way more free to be who they are once again - so neither a surprise nor an epidemic.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#147

Post by simiones » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #66

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

What boggles my mind is that people who adamantly claim that all gender behavior is socially constructed are the ones who are the first to denounce the idea that you can learn to want to be another gender.

I don't think that happens too often. The problem is that there are at least two different and often opposing currents in pro-trans movements.

One is from the "gender is a social construct" post-modernist side, which views the very idea that people are either men or women with some suspicion, and leads to concepts such as gender fluidity, non-binary identities, and the idea that maybe young kids should not be gendered at all unless and until they chose to assume some gender.

The other current is much more conservative, and starts with the simple observation that some people experience extreme gender dysphoria that has only successfully been cured (or at least alleviated) by gender-affirming care (from gender expression to hormone treatments to top/bottom surgery to facial feminization/masculinization surgery and beyond). This current considers it much more clear that humans are generally either men or women, with relatively clear associated characteristics, and simply considers that some people happen to have the "wrong" characteristics. Rather than investigating the philosophical reasoning of why this might be happening and what it means for the concepts woman/man, it is much more concerned with the practical problem of how to make life better for people who feel like this.

My impression is that the second group is much much more prevalent, but also seen as problematic by the first group. The first group is much more extreme, and has much more "interesting" talking points, so it is significantly over-represented in online discussions and media.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#148

Post by mc32 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #119

xd wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…

Gender identity and sexual orientation are different concepts. Exploring gender identity is not the same as exploring sexuality. Children are constantly exploring identity, as I'm sure you have observed. For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I saw that other people incorporated these activities in the…

My take is kids play with whatever is around.

If your dad has acetylene torches around and your mom has axes around the house you’re going to play with them.

It does not mean or imply or predict that you want to burn the house down or you want to become a butcher or axe murderer. You’re not exploring being a pyromaniac or a murderer. You’re just playing, that’s it.

Same with high heels, smoking pipes, hunting rifles or lipstick. Kids don’t know their meaning yet (context of usage).

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#149

Post by refurb » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #119

xd wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…

Gender identity and sexual orientation are different concepts. Exploring gender identity is not the same as exploring sexuality. Children are constantly exploring identity, as I'm sure you have observed. For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I saw that other people incorporated these activities in the…

For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls.

I wouldn't see trying on lipstick or playing with Barbie dolls as "exploring a gender identity" as neither of those are exclusive to one gender, even in a heteronormative world.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#150

Post by notadev » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

xd wrote: post #85

bognition wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…

Terms like “heteronormativity” and “cisgender” are just ways they attempt to marginalize normal people and their normal sexual development. These people who use these terms are objectively and statistically outliers in society. And since they can’t convince anyone to accept their abnormality, they instead try to change language to remove the idea of there being a standard/normal baseline.

They think that because you’re not trying to make them “explore their gender identity” while teaching them ABCs that you are pushing something. It’s absolute projection. I support all people to live their lives how they see fit, but I refuse to use their newspeak or pretend like there is not a natural normal.