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No one wants to have kids anymore

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Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#41

Post by sirius87 »

fyffhfrj wrote: post #10
chiefalchemist wrote: post #5

I think it cliche to believe it's strictly a financial decision. In fact, in the West (afaik) the middle and upper class have a lower birth rates than those below them. Not to get subjective and fuzzy but children are a symbol of hope and promise. Any reasonable adult who is considering children has to ask themselve how to answer when the child asks, "Why? Why did you bring me into *this* world?" Who has a good answe…

Considering that it's the poorer people having more children it seems like the obvious answer is that most children are unplanned or the product of dim people with a figure it out later attitude.

> the product of dim people with a figure it out later attitude

I wonder how many of the "figure it out later" attitude people overlap the "absolute faith in higher power" people? Poorer people possibly have more subscribers to religious faith?

A decline in the religious population, that comforted themselves with wellbeing of their offspring being a matter of prayer and ritual and whatnot, has had some impact on peoples' outlook in this matter?

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#43

Post by PragmaticPulp »

A word of advice to anyone on the fence about having kids: There’s nothing wrong with choosing not to have kids, but do yourself and consult with actual parents for what it’s really like to have kids. Articles like this one, which are written by someone who apparently has chosen not to have children, are almost universally terrible at representing the true experience of being a parent.

Yes, being a parent involves a period of reduced sleep (as this author points out). No, it does not mean your world ends and you’re never sleeping again. The low-sleep phase is temporary. It’s such a short duration relative to the rest of your life as a parent that it really doesn’t matter much in the long run. Same goes for changing diapers and dealing with baby vomit. If you’re focused on these experiences as the defining characteristics of being a parent, you’ll completely miss the big picture.

This article also has a big strawman at the center:

> I don't see how babies could possibly come back as the preferred lifestyle choice for couples in their 20s

Most of the parents I know in my area had kids in their 30s. And it’s fine! Obviously you don’t want to be too old, but having kids in your 30s is basically the norm among working professionals. The fact that this author is focused on having kids in your 20s makes me wonder if they’re living in a childfree peer bubble or if they’re simply too young to see their friends and peers grow up, have children, and enjoy it.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#44

Post by jonplackett »

somehnacct3757 wrote: post #33

Kid-having emerges. This (western biased) article is blaming the victim. An entire generation bled dry by student loans for useless degrees, unable to buy homes that their elders view as retirement funds. A thousand and one more entertaining things to do online which don't risk creating 18-year bundles of debt. And absolutely no idea how to break the cycle for your offspring. Pick one thing to fix and spend your life…

Came here to say this - I live in London and see many a fellow parent struggling to even have space for the kids they already have (or soon will have). Trying hastily bolt on a loft extension - if they can afford that.

Meanwhile landlords are reaping in INSANE rents from anyone who didn’t manage to buy back when that was at least a realistic dream.

People are people. The urge to have kids is incredibly strong. But if you are living in a tiny flat earning no money then it’s going to at the least be strongly suppressed.

Parents are getting _older_ as well as fewer so that should give an indication of what’s going on here.

No-one is in a financial position to have a baby in their 20s anymore, and by the time you’re in your 30s it’s biologically already harder to have a baby.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#45

Post by somedude895 »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #5

I think it cliche to believe it's strictly a financial decision. In fact, in the West (afaik) the middle and upper class have a lower birth rates than those below them. Not to get subjective and fuzzy but children are a symbol of hope and promise. Any reasonable adult who is considering children has to ask themselve how to answer when the child asks, "Why? Why did you bring me into *this* world?" Who has a good answe…

> "Why? Why did you bring me into this world?"

"This world as in the safest and wealthiest world we've ever known? Son, for as long as humanity has existed, we've mastered all the challenges that have been thrown at us. Challenges much worse than the ones we are currently facing, be they environmental, societal or other. You'll find your place in this world and make the best of it."

Of course he'd be an angsty teenager asking that question, so I don't think it'd get through to him for the time being. I'd get him Marcus Aurelius' Meditations for his birthday.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#46

Post by mcv »

> at this pace, the world's population is going to flatline at around 10 billion in 50 years

Is that what you're panicking about? This means that for the next 50 years, we'll continue growing. Lack of offspring of current generations is clearly not the problem here.

I still remember how in the 1980s, people were panicking that the world population kept growing, and sooner or later we were going to hit 10 billion. And now 10 billion is not enough?

It's obvious that this population growth is not sustainable. Sure, the Earth may technically be able to feed 40 billion people if we all turn vegan, but so far, we don't exactly have a good track record of dividing our resources equally. That is a far bigger issue to worry about.

Should the population grow or shrink? I don't know, but whichever we end up doing, we should do so sustainably; make sure every kid is fed, cared for, received the best possible education, and can live a happy life. And if young people don't have the time or money for any of that, not having children is the responsible choice for them. If we don't like the results, we should change our economic balance to the point that they do have the time and money to raise children.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#47

Post by mkagenius »

fyffhfrj wrote: post #10
chiefalchemist wrote: post #5

I think it cliche to believe it's strictly a financial decision. In fact, in the West (afaik) the middle and upper class have a lower birth rates than those below them. Not to get subjective and fuzzy but children are a symbol of hope and promise. Any reasonable adult who is considering children has to ask themselve how to answer when the child asks, "Why? Why did you bring me into *this* world?" Who has a good answe…

Considering that it's the poorer people having more children it seems like the obvious answer is that most children are unplanned or the product of dim people with a figure it out later attitude.

It's not really figure it out later. They have reasons like they will take care in the old age. If all of my peers can why can't I etc. Also, it's more of modern concept to actively not have children, which is not really permeated to all economic groups.

Atleast in India.

In other news, Lalu Prasad Yadav's daughter gave her one kidney to him yesterday. Where point 1 literally panned out.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#48

Post by toomuchtodo »

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #36

> But deep down I get it. Babies are a huge opportunity cost. Financially speaking, they are like winning the lottery but backwards. You can't even think of having one without cancelling your subscription to a good night's sleep. And if you take into account inflation, economic recession, and the rest of the news cycle's highlight reel, even a one-child family can seem to have one too many mouths to fish Lego pieces…

It costs $310k to pay for a kid from 0-18 per Brookings. The math is straightforward to work backwards to the income you need to afford that along with your basic needs and retirement savings, and most people don’t have the means. Median US lifetime earnings are $1.7 million.

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/3608647-new-estimate-proj...

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#49

Post by danrl »

> Are you really making an argument for why we don't need more babies to be brought into this world? That is a bit on the side of fucked up if you ask me.

Great argument. About as great as the rest of the article which misses any nuance.

Re: No one wants to have kids anymore

#50

Post by StanislavPetrov »

dmm wrote: post #26
Victerius wrote: post #2

> Don't fool yourself; we're not overpopulating ourselves to global economic and environmental meltdown; Yes we are. Yes. We. Are. Let it happen. I'll start panicking if the human population is still decreasing at 100 million. But for now, we are still growing.

Even if you believe that the earth is overpopulated and think a shrinking population is good, you still need to consider the sustainability of that population change. Birth rates below replacement means that the proportion of elderly increases every year, forever. This means an every increasing proportion of resources has to be transferred from the working to non-working population. It will become harder and harder f…

>Birth rates below replacement means that the proportion of elderly increases every year, forever.

Not when life expectancy decreases, as it is here in the United States.

>It will become harder and harder for young people to build wealth and support themselves and it means fewer resources to solve the other very big problems we have such as climate change.

"Big problems" like climate change because much less "big" when other problems grow more pressing and threatening to immediate survival. People who don't have a roof over their heads or a meal to eat aren't concerned with climate change.

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