It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#171

Post by DarkWiiPlayer » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #49

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

Recently read the story of a detransitioner and the statistic that about a third falls of the radar (and due missing their hormones, almost certainly are unhappy about the treatment). Social media are implicated in the spread of these ideas (all ideas), and the detransitioner pleaded for better info from professionals and an end to doctor neutrality for underage trans people. Changed my mind a bit.

Less than 1%. That's the number of people who detransition simply because they didn't feel it was the right thing for them.

Of the less than 2% of detransitioners overall, the vast majority names reasons like social pressure, transitioning being too difficult, etc.

Dunno what numbers you are talking about, but the ones I know certainly underline gender dysphoria being a very real thing and not some sort of "social contagion", and my personal experience definitely aligns with this as well: I don't know a single trans person who seems to regret transitioning, but a whole number of trans people who are struggling with the constant hate they get, fuelled in part by this sort of rhetoric.

And since the article in one of the replies mentioned puberty blockers: They are 1. entirely reversible, 2. routinely prescribed to cis children for other medical reasons and 3. unlike these blockers, puberty is not reversible.

Can I change your mind, even if just a little bit? I don't know; but if you really want to change your mind, start looking closely into the "statistics" of the right. Their misrepresentations are often absurdly superficial. It's all a lie, and the parts that aren't, usually aren't that bad.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#172

Post by TomSwirly » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:10 PM UTC

largepeepee wrote: post #92

bognition wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.

>For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. Only decades? You mean for all of history, where there are distinct roles mostly because of anatomy. In fact, it was only in recent decades with birth control that was there even an option for most women to take a different role for extended periods. I'll say the opposite is true, the last several decades did a great j…

> it was only in recent decades with birth control that was there even an option for most women to take a different role for extended periods.

Reliable birth control methods are sixty years old. And of course there have always been non-reproductive sex acts since the birth of time.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#173

Post by Sebb767 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:10 PM UTC

winReInstall wrote: post #14

Imagine you start the same trend, but everyone tries for once to contribute something science wise original to society, so the problem is real, but the potential is greater. Now comes the part, were advertisers try to create sociogenic illnesses that spread theire product/brands information. We can also skip directly to the part, were we mourn the youtfull ideals of a idea, taken over by scammers.

> Imagine you start the same trend, but everyone tries for once to contribute something science wise original to society, so the problem is real, but the potential is greater.

I know you aren't totally serious, but this won't work, most likely. The "advantage" of having a tick like that is not just that it gives you attention, it's something absolutely low-effort and instant gratification. Contributing to science is anything but. Plus, even if individuals tried to do so, it's quite easy to miss newest research or fall for a fallacy, which will make for a net-negative contribution if you are not careful.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#174

Post by lzaaz » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:11 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #124

lzaaz wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that an opinion is censored by the means of flagging means that it doesn't have a chance to compete in the "marketplace of ideas".

No, that is the idea being assigned a negative value.

If an idea goes against the guidelines of a website that doesn't mean it has a negative value, especially if users aren't allowed to interact with it at all.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#175

Post by leephillips » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:11 PM UTC

Macha wrote: post #123

funcDropShadow wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they are absolutely sure that you need a physical modification to adapt to a socially constructed norm. And at the same time they demand medical procedures while denying that it is a medical condition, whose treatment needs to be studied with scientific rigor. Instead they say the affected persons know their best treatment. Just imagine applying that same approach to addicts.

Is it? Transmedicalists (those who belive sex reassignment is a required goal) are a minority in trans communities and "truscum" was created as a derogatory term for this attitude indicating its unpopularity. If you mean puberty blockers for trans youth rather than sex reassignment, they have much more support because of their non-permanent nature. We let many teenagers make decisions about things like tattoos and pi…

The use of puberty blockers to delay the normal onset of puberty is experimental and there is plenty of evidence that it has irreversible and serious, often tragic, effects:

https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.100...

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#176

Post by refurb » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:11 PM UTC

quietbritishjim wrote: post #100

xd wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…

I have no skin in the overall debate but it's clear that a prince and princess running off together in a Disney film is heteronormative, while most people wouldn't consider it to be abhorrently sexualising for children to watch those films.

I mean, heterosexuality is the predominant form of sexuality in humans?

Humans come in all forms. Most humans have two legs, but not all. Some are born missing a leg and some lose them from injuries. If we only show two legged characters in Disney films does that mean it's some sinister message of "bipedalnormativity"?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#177

Post by walkhour » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:12 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #142

(content warning) It's not commonly discussed, but suicide seems to be a "sociogenic illness" in that reporting on suicides as such can cause more suicides. You may have noticed this in the reporting on celebrity deaths; a young person who "dies suddenly" may be suicide, but news reports will tend to avoid saying that out of concern for the sociogenic effects.

For the reason you discuss you should delete your comment. Airplanes crashes rise when the media discusses these topics: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1746810.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#178

Post by maxbond » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:12 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #149

maxbond wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender identity and sexual orientation are different concepts. Exploring gender identity is not the same as exploring sexuality. Children are constantly exploring identity, as I'm sure you have observed. For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I saw that other people incorporated these activities in the…

For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I wouldn't see trying on lipstick or playing with Barbie dolls as "exploring a gender identity" as neither of those are exclusive to one gender, even in a heteronormative world.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but in the culture of my household, my school, and the people I had contact with as a child, this was seen as strange and something to be discouraged, because these things were seen as gendered.

I think these things were much more gendered at the time, as well. It is crazy for me to look back and remember how there was a time when I hadn't made up my mind about whether gay marriage was okay or not. Things have changed a lot over the past 20 years or so.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#179

Post by tpmoney » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

api wrote: post #140

bigbillheck wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Left-handed people.

I bring this one up every time someone brings up Chesterton's Fence arguments about stuff like this. Why was left handedness considered taboo and evil? Do we need to figure out a legitimate reason for this before we can remove the fence? Could there possibly be a legitimate reason for something that clearly absurd?

I mean the point of the argument is to try to find out if there is possibly a legitimate reason, not to assume there was and not explore removing the fence. Sometimes no there was no good reason. Sometimes there was but it’s no longer applicable.For example lots of religious dietary restrictions have reasonable health benefits, especially in a society before modern refrigeration and food safety standards. So while there was a legitimate reason, it’s not nearly as applicable anymore. Discouraging sexual freedom and promiscuity makes a lot more sense in a society without birth control and where every additional mouth to feed means someone isn’t making it through the winter. Less so in a modern society. And sometimes there are absolutely legitimate reasons that have just been lost to time (most commonly captured in the idea that most safety rules and regulations are written in blood)

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#180

Post by quietbritishjim » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #176

quietbritishjim wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no skin in the overall debate but it's clear that a prince and princess running off together in a Disney film is heteronormative, while most people wouldn't consider it to be abhorrently sexualising for children to watch those films.

I mean, heterosexuality is the predominant form of sexuality in humans? Humans come in all forms. Most humans have two legs, but not all. Some are born missing a leg and some lose them from injuries. If we only show two legged characters in Disney films does that mean it's some sinister message of "bipedalnormativity"?

I never said it was sinister. I just made a statement of fact that it shows a heterosexual relationship, but doesn't significantly sexualise children. If anything, my comment could be construed as defending that sort of film rather than attacking it.