Is this different from any other learned behaviour? If a baby hangs around English speaking people they are going to learn to speak the language with the same accent. Then you see a group of kids where every sentence is peppered with the F-bomb, it's all the same right?
It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
111–120 of 704 posts
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#112What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…
Of course if gender non-normativity can be learned, so too can gender normativity (e.g. bro culture is arguably a form of men learning to do what their local culture considers male things). I don't think all trans people would disagree with that part as much as you think (see the "I never knew that could be an option" thoughts from some late transitioners reflecting back), the bit they'd disagree with is the idea tha…
Normativity by definition is related to actions/outcomes that society deems good/desirable/permissible; non-normativity, the opposite. Societal goals are always a moving target, so it follows that normativity is as well.
My dad still uses language like "C'mon! Be a man and do {this thing}."
Personally, I believe when I'm old and crotchety the winds of society will leave my language at something like "C'mon! You should do {this thing}." and leave the gender out of it entirely.
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Since there is a school of thought that gender to a great extent is socially learned behaviour the idea that you by learning more about gender transgression would "create" a desire that "I would be more comfortable in 'that gender' over there" is not far-fetched although I'm not aware of any research. The issue is mostly by those who pathologize that state of not being comfortable in ones "gender assigned at birth",…
How can there ever be an informed transition with something like shifting genders?
You can practice presenting differently in safe social situations, that's reversible. (e.g. crossdressing)
Trans fem people can remove their facial hair without doing other medical transition steps.
The effects of hormone replacement are so slow that you can safely "try them out" for a month or two and not have a huge permanent burden.
You talk to people and think about it real hard and sleep on it for years. It looks sudden from the outside because there's such a stigma over saying "Hey I'm thinking about trying on a new gender, do you think it would work?"
It's not too different from other body modification like tattoos or vasectomies. You can't fully know for sure, but there is a point where you decide that the risk is worth it, because the potential payoff seems worth it. Then it usually turns out it is. Most "de-transition" cases are people who couldn't afford the monetary cost or social cost of presenting as transgender. It's un-common to transition and then find out you're actually cis.
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fuck it, I'll take the karma hit. I am of course referring to young girls identifying as male/non-binary. I'm sure some of the cases are genuine, but not all. And I'm not saying these girls aren't troubled or have other things going on that they need help with.
I appreciate your being willing to speak your mind without hiding behind vaguery. We can risk a karma hit together. You are referring to a myth called "Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria," which has been debunked. Gender identity is not a socially transmitted pathology. I don't believe you meant this in a hateful way, but let me explain what the problem is with this idea. This is sophistry about how LGBTQ people should rem…
> which has been debunked
That is, unfortunately, not an argument. To apply your line of thinking to the OP, would you say that "children displaying Tourette's symptoms from watching a YouTuber is a reversal of cause and effect"? The OP does not make that conclusion, and most of this comment section accepts that as well. I, like GP, would be interested to hear how this would be reconciled.
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#115What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…
> because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender.
Because we can't. And trust me, I have tried. Trans people are neither "over represented" nor a contagion.
And it's not about "hate speech"; it's about stopping the spread of lies and extremist propaganda. The lie that "being trans is a choice" is just one little moving part in the massive machinery of oppressing, persecuting and killing trans people. You don't need actual hate speech to cause harm.
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's worth saying but if I say it the comment gets flagged and no one gets to read it.
I always read flagged comments, and I vouch for them when I feel they've been unfairly flagged (or when they're from banned accounts that are automatically flagged, but the comment is unobjectionable). This is however a tacit admission that what you have to say is against the guidelines of this site and that, were you to let it compete in the market place of ideas, it would be fail completely.
The fact that an opinion is censored by the means of flagging means that it doesn't have a chance to compete in the "marketplace of ideas".
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…
You've not noticed the pink for girls/blue for boys distinction?
Yes and me and my wife laugh about it but there is an obvious distinctive preference for kids male and female which will play into sales .. no one is forcing anyone to buy anything and even back in the 80s growing up I knew kids that would buy toys you'd associate with the other gender.
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…
You've not noticed the pink for girls/blue for boys distinction?
How is that “ massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity”?
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.
As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…
Gender identity and sexual orientation are different concepts. Exploring gender identity is not the same as exploring sexuality. Children are constantly exploring identity, as I'm sure you have observed. For instance, I am a straight man, but when I was a child I sometimes stole my mother's lipstick and tried to put it on, or I would play with Barbie dolls. I saw that other people incorporated these activities in their identities, and I wanted to try it. This was no more sexual than when I play acted as a soldier or decided I liked to wear cargo pants; I was experimenting with who I was or could become, because that is what children do.
This is a convenient segue to heteronormativity. Heteronormativity is the societal pressure to conform to the traditional gender roles of men and women who pursue heterosexual relationships. My parents didn't like me playing with Barbie dolls; they explicitly told me that it wasn't something boys did. This transmits a set of expectations about how I should behave, based on my gender. Notice that their telling me it was wrong to play with dolls was no more sexual than if they had allowed me to play with the dolls.
Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness
#120What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…
Recently read the story of a detransitioner and the statistic that about a third falls of the radar (and due missing their hormones, almost certainly are unhappy about the treatment). Social media are implicated in the spread of these ideas (all ideas), and the detransitioner pleaded for better info from professionals and an end to doctor neutrality for underage trans people. Changed my mind a bit.
idk I got a stapled packet of info from my provider and the effects are listed on Wikipedia these days for the stuff I'm on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminizing_hormone_therapy#Eff...
It's a tradeoff. At least we can all agree that adults have the right to transition under an Informed Consent model. Countries like the UK, without IC, are hellholes for trans medical care. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1eWIshUzr8