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Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

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Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#91
One of the greatest strengths that both China and India have is that the West will never understand them.

The West will think they understand them. They will assume they understand them. They will be sure they understand them. But they will never understand them.

Hence the implication in the headline (well-written headline, by the way), that if nobody else uses it, India is wasting its time.

The same people said about UPI (Modi's digital payments push):

- hardly anyone has cellphones in India

- it'll take years to train India's illiterate masses how to use an app on a phone

India now has 850 million cellphone users. And the government is creating incentives to put one in every hand.

UPI now conducts more digital payments than China or USA (I've heard that it handles more than both combined, but I don't want to make that claim without a reference, and am feeling too lazy to look for one right now).

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#92
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most examinations of CBDC paint a grim picture of things to come, mostly in terms of yielding absolute power to the central bank. As with any situation involving power, with good intentions you can do wonderful things, with bad intentions you can do equally horrifying things. In the Indian context, the latter is of particular concern, especially when one man can demonetise the whole country overnight on a whim. There…

The question should be: with the track record of wild debt countries are showing, the Twitter leaked mails shpwing political control behind and the raise in taxes, what makes you think they will do something good? Besides that: why should I put my effort at the management of people I do not trust so that they do what they deem appropriate without paying for their mistakes? Am I his slave or something?

Because in the context of India the digitization of money and centralization of data has been a massive boon to the people.

For example, with the creation of a national identification number (which, thanks to the initial poor security measures has already been hacked), government welfare schemes which involved the distribution of money to people now actually results in the poor benefitting from them, since the money gets deposited in their bank accounts directly. In the past over 80-90% of the money would be stolen by intermediaries.

This is entirely the result of the creation of a massive identity database which by any angle is a security nightmare.

Further, the digitization of money has led to tremendous benefits to the population. Not having to carry around cash greatly reduces the risks of loss or theft. A lot of abuse faced by vendors in the unofficial sector (which is the bulk of the economy) has also reduced because a customer promising to pay cash later because they wouldn’t have it on them, and then either “forgetting” to do so, or delaying it and effectively getting an interest free loan from people who were least able to afford it, is something that has reduced dramatically because the vendor can demand the customer pay them directly using any of the digital means whose receipt they will get confirmation of instantly.

Digital currency has also led to a reduction in fraud and claims of fraud. If a vendor sends a product to a customer with a delivery person, for example, in the past they’d bring cash. This opened up a lot of opportunity for abuse against the largely powerless delivery person where either the customer would not pay enough, and the vendor would blame the delivery person for stealing the money, etc. But now, that simply doesn’t come into play. The customer pays the vendor directly and the vendor sends the delivery person a confirmation and they hand over the product to the customer.

A whole class of exploitation tactics have basically been eliminated.

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question should be: with the track record of wild debt countries are showing, the Twitter leaked mails shpwing political control behind and the raise in taxes, what makes you think they will do something good? Besides that: why should I put my effort at the management of people I do not trust so that they do what they deem appropriate without paying for their mistakes? Am I his slave or something?

Because in the context of India the digitization of money and centralization of data has been a massive boon to the people. For example, with the creation of a national identification number (which, thanks to the initial poor security measures has already been hacked), government welfare schemes which involved the distribution of money to people now actually results in the poor benefitting from them, since the money…

I get your point and things are nuanced depending on the situation.

But the amount of control this tracking can create is potentially evil. We have to be careful with this.

I'd rather work for less and keep control than doing this. But what this is going to generate is massive govt. control. Worse than before. Not telling about India specifics though.

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#94
post #53
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most examinations of CBDC paint a grim picture of things to come, mostly in terms of yielding absolute power to the central bank. As with any situation involving power, with good intentions you can do wonderful things, with bad intentions you can do equally horrifying things. In the Indian context, the latter is of particular concern, especially when one man can demonetise the whole country overnight on a whim. There…

Thanks for the link -- it is a nice discussion, and contains pointers to interesting content that I wasn't aware of. (likewise, for the sibling comment with links about mBridge) I appreciate the privacy concerns, but for anyone reading, the tradeoffs have a completely different meaning in the Indian context. 1. A fraction of the Indian populace is so poor that the cost of operating a cash economy (printing currency,…

UPI has been highly successful.

But please, let’s not credit demonetization with any of it. To the extent demonetization helped, it was an unplanned accident. And it was a result of the fact that the previous administration had begun the Aadhar project (which to its credit the current govt continued and even took credit for).

Demonetization was nothing more than a massive destruction of wealth and growth, done for only one reason. To starve the political opposition of funds over the next few elections.

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#95
post #84
post #9

Meh. The article expends zero effort in actually engaging with the Reserve Bank of India's motivations or the CBDC design [1], and is filled with shallow comments about the roll-out in other countries. This is a very important topic as it has the potential to reshape banking/economics on the timescale of decades. For a good down-to-earth understanding of "layer 1" -vs- "layer 2" money, refer the following post [2]. I…

> India's digital payments ecosystem (the "UPI") has been an unparallelled success at the second layer. Hence the reason why the RBI will eventually use UPI to piloting their CBDC on top of it anyway and force all of India to use it. That should scare us all.

> That should scare us all.

Why?

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#96

Remind me about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Indian_banknote_demonetis... > On 8 November 2016, the Government of India announced the demonetisation of all ₹500 and ₹1,000 banknotes > Several people were reported to have died from standing in queues for hours to exchange their demonetised banknotes.[180][181][182][183][184][185] Deaths were also attributed to lack of medical help due to refusal of demonetised b…

What has this got to do with TFA?

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#97
post #10

They will use a major crisis to force adoption.

Thank the Lord this wasn't ready to deploy during covid. They are going to prepare it for the next crisis.

there's no need for a cbdc, just invoke the emergencies act and you can do whatever you want with anybodies money

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#98
India has very successfully introduced infrastructure for mobile payments. This is one of the pieces to counter corruption and also to bring the "underground economy" into the mainstream. Digital currency is another such piece to help reduce "underhand" dealings.

CBDC in India will probably be used to curb hawala, black money and underground economy.

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#99
post #53
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most examinations of CBDC paint a grim picture of things to come, mostly in terms of yielding absolute power to the central bank. As with any situation involving power, with good intentions you can do wonderful things, with bad intentions you can do equally horrifying things. In the Indian context, the latter is of particular concern, especially when one man can demonetise the whole country overnight on a whim. There…

Thanks for the link -- it is a nice discussion, and contains pointers to interesting content that I wasn't aware of. (likewise, for the sibling comment with links about mBridge) I appreciate the privacy concerns, but for anyone reading, the tradeoffs have a completely different meaning in the Indian context. 1. A fraction of the Indian populace is so poor that the cost of operating a cash economy (printing currency,…

> 1. A fraction of the Indian populace is so poor that the cost of operating a cash economy (printing currency, transporting it securely, stocking and operating ATMS and bank branches) might prove forbiddingly expensive to service rural areas -- leading to financial exclusion. So, for them, digital infrastructure (which reduces cost of transacting) is a matter of life support, rather than the luxury that it is in the developed world (where everyone has bank accounts, access to cheap credit, and can swipe plastic cards everywhere).

So poor, but well-off for paying for mobile phones/laptops and internet, and educated enough to understand the app interface/language?

Re: Nobody’s using CBDCs – India’s piloting one anyway

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you are assuming that "governments" and "citizens" are two disjoint groups with different agendas. That's a really bleak way of looking at it, at least in functioning democracies. I'd certainly protest loudly if some sort of anonymity wasn't part of the plan at every step. I was happy to see at least some footnotes from a recent pilot CDBC mentioning this. https://www.riksbank.se/globalassets/media/rapporter/e-kr…

>Now you are assuming that "governments" and "citizens" are two disjoint groups with different agendas. They are.

No, they're a subset/superset with different agendas.
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