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Iran abolishes morality police

hindustantimes.com

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Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#191

Post by rocketbop »

Matl wrote: post #64
marcosdumay wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the fixation on the West? This is an entirely Iranian revolution, lead by their own people, with their own, very plain goals.

Because I presume the commenter talking about how this shows them being on their last legs is Western, but mainly because I've seen countless articles about how all this is basically a great opportunity for regime change. If you believe that there's no opportunistic involvement of the various Western governments here, (to the determent of the actual Iranians protesting btw), I have a bridge to sell you. I am a citize…

> If you believe that there's no opportunistic involvement of the various Western governments here,

Can you point to any? Knowing the expat Persian community where I live in Germany, the movement against the regime is very much coming from Iranians. It's Iranians on the streets in Tehran without headscarves, Iranians being shot and killed, Iranians marching and organizing demonstrations.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#192

Post by ianai »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #13
lajosbacs wrote: post #7

As nntaleb postulates, once a dictatorship starts giving concessions, it is on its last legs. Therefore I do not believe this news.

Lots of dictatorships make concessions and continue to stick around: take Cuba with its market reforms of the 1990s and 2000s, ditto North Korea. But I don’t believe this news either, but simply because I haven’t seen any reporting that independently verifies the claim being made.

The line I’ve heard (Stephen Kotkin) “dictatorships just have to be good at one thing: defeating all political alternatives.” Shuffling around the police isn’t allowing for a political alternative to the regime.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#193

Post by ethanbond »

cies wrote: post #143
ethanbond wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don’t get executed in the US for saying “down with Biden/Trump/whoever.” This “all imperfect systems are equally imperfect” is utterly detached from reality.

You are right in the US you can say that. But showing how the govt is criminally scheming against the people gets you in jail just as much. Ask Assange. > This “all imperfect systems are equally imperfect” is utterly detached from reality. I wanted to say they are similar in resisting reform. Sorry if that was not clear.

They're not though. Assange would be tried in a court with codified laws that are written by elected representatives of the people. He'd have a right to legal representation of his choice. He'd be able to call witnesses to defend him. A jury could decide that even if he's entirely guilty of the crime, that actually the law on the books is incorrect and therefore nullify it. If he gets an unfair trial, he can appeal and get another one with a different judge and different jury. If it turns out that the conviction was correct given the laws, and the juries are pretty much fine with the laws as written, he still can make an argument to the very philosophical principles of a democracy in the Supreme Court and be vindicated. All of these are imperfect, yes, but they are imperfect in dramatically different ways than an authoritarian theocratic regime is imperfect.

"There is a concept of law and punishment" is where the similarity ends. To observe that a system resists reform is the same observation as "there is a system." That is what they do. All the systems that have no resistance to reform aren't systems. They don't exist!

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#194

Post by hairofadog »

drstewart wrote: post #134
hairofadog wrote: post #91

It’s worth noting that Iran was a democracy until the 1953, when the US and UK supported a coup to install a corrupt dictator so they could avoid paying oil fees. The 1979 Iranian revolution was the pendulum swinging back hard the other way. I’m in no way supporting Iran’s religious extremism or current government, but they are monsters that we created. The coup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%…

Okay, but why are you blaming the UK when the Romans invaded in the 40s AD? And of course the US was created from the UK. So surely that means it's actually all Italy's fault by your logic. These countries didn't have their own agency.

I don’t know enough about that period of history, but surely the Roman invasion in the 40’s had some consequences in the following decades for which the Romans could be assigned responsibility?

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#195

Post by mdp2021 »

Koshkin wrote: post #178
mdp2021 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we Careful with that "«we»", Eugene. I am certainly not responsible for the actions of the empowered.

Generally people are considered responsible for the actions of their governments - at least those that were democratically elected.

> Generally people are considered

Considered by whom? They must be insane, if they think that the presence of severely imperfect systems of election of candidates makes individuals in a population responsible. Only the use of a non intellectual organ can come to that conclusion.

You have just proven, through stating the pervasiveness of lunacy, that the responsibility of the sane can only be limited.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#196

Post by rocketbop »

Matl wrote: post #132
lajosbacs wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'West' might support the protesters, sure, but the effort is still negligible to the will of Iranians. What I read in your comment is that the ppl of Iran have no agency, all is just conflict between the 'West' and whatever. I just find this stance incredibly patronising. One hears the same thing on Ukraine (from Chomsky, for example).

> What I read in your comment is that the ppl of Iran have no agency My stance is the exact opposite, it's that they do have agency but that the constant articles in the West celebrating a chance for some sort of regime change actually gives the Iranian government the ammunition it needs to make them appear sponsored/non-organic. It makes it worse that the West does in fact have a history of regime change in Iran, (t…

> My stance is the exact opposite, it's that they do have agency but that the constant articles in the West celebrating a chance for some sort of regime change actually gives the Iranian government the ammunition it needs to make them appear sponsored/non-organic.

It barely matters. Diplomats do try spin things that way, but the government's problem is that they can't stop the protests inside despite having already killed hundreds of protesters, foreign media is pretty far down their list of concerns. In Tehran women are walking around without headscarves in blatant defiance of morality rules and the government is growing desperate.

Recent talk of maybe relaxing morality rules are a desperate attempt to placate the protests, not put on a show for the West.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#197

Post by lajosbacs »

Matl wrote: post #172
lajosbacs wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I see and accept your point. But still after your clarification, I see nothing wrong with west cheering the revolution. a) It is our side b) It is impossible to enforce 'not cheering', one slip is enough to be used against you, see Musk and Russian propaganda. And regarding the Gulf states, I also do not like this. But one has to pick his battles and better (for us) getting our oil from them than from Russia.

> But one has to pick his battles and better (for us) getting our oil from them than from Russia. Hmm...could you clarify? The human rights situation in the Gulf is much, much worse in the Gulf. Would this be because they're easier to get in line?

I meant that we need to buy our oil somewhere, for now. And unlike Russia they are far away and not an imminent danger. So better be friends with them, even though we don't like it.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#198

Post by vidarh »

Vespasian wrote: post #51
nextaccountic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba actually has a democratic process, believe it or not.

So do China, North Korea or Russia. Sometimes there are even multiple parties. Is there a chance that the people in power (at any level of government) get voted out?

China being one of the ones with multiple parties which often surprises people. But there are eight legal ones besides the CCP.

In reality of course this means nothing, given they are all required to be part of the "United Front" led by the CCP.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#199

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

smcl wrote: post #82
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of dictatorships make concessions and continue to stick around: take Cuba with its market reforms of the 1990s and 2000s, ditto North Korea. But I don’t believe this news either, but simply because I haven’t seen any reporting that independently verifies the claim being made.

BBC are reporting it: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63850656 Al Jazeera too: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/4/iran-prosecutor-gen... RTE: https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2022/1204/1339880-iran-moralit... and plenty more besides. I have no idea if it's a sincere declaration (like, maybe they'll still enforce these laws but using regular police instead of the morality police, for example) but "Iran c…

*Now*, I believe it (well, I believe the announcement has been made) - and I'm cautiously optimistic that the regieme will follow-through on their promise, somehow.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#200

Post by kelipso »

grumpymouse wrote: post #190
dontbenebby wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Yes, historically 50% or above of people in NI have wanted to be part of the uk and considered themselves British (often to the point of marching around waving Union Jacks etc). Over time that number has gone down relative to people who consider themselves Irish but the numbers are still fairly equal.

Aren't most of those people waving Union Jacks genetically/ethnically Anglo? As in they are descendants of people from England.
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