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Iran abolishes morality police

hindustantimes.com

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Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#131

Post by malermeister »

verisimi wrote: post #114

"Iran abolishes morality police" .. and now, can we? I'm a bit tired off all the bull crap that is no longer allowed to be said, as if self-policing oneself and being unable to honestly state one's opinion, is the way to become more authentic. As if repressing oneself and suppressing others could ever lead to a better society.

Of course repressing oneself can lead to a better society.

If pedophiles, people with violent urges etc are able to suppress their urges for example, don't you think that's a good thing?

Should everyone just be acting out their id's desires unchecked?

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#132

Post by Matl »

lajosbacs wrote: post #124
Matl wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question; What motivation should a government like Iran's have to listen, if any concession it does give is seen in the West as a great opportunity to show that it is weak, on its last legs etc. to try and overthrow it? I am not naive enough to think this is the case here , but say theoretically at some point someone with power in such a government has a human moment and actually wants to give some concessions…

The 'West' might support the protesters, sure, but the effort is still negligible to the will of Iranians. What I read in your comment is that the ppl of Iran have no agency, all is just conflict between the 'West' and whatever. I just find this stance incredibly patronising. One hears the same thing on Ukraine (from Chomsky, for example).

> What I read in your comment is that the ppl of Iran have no agency

My stance is the exact opposite, it's that they do have agency but that the constant articles in the West celebrating a chance for some sort of regime change actually gives the Iranian government the ammunition it needs to make them appear sponsored/non-organic.

It makes it worse that the West does in fact have a history of regime change in Iran, (that had, as its ultimate consequence, helped to install the current gov. there).

If we appeared a lot more indifferent towards changing the regime as such, while supporting the rights of women on moral grounds everywhere, incl our allies such as the Gulf states, we'd have a lot more credibility and removing agency from the protesters by the Iranian authorities would become a lot harder than it is now.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#133

Post by alexeldeib »

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #121
bnralt wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s worth noting that Iran was a democracy until the 1953, when the US and UK supported a coup to install a corrupt dictator This simply wasn't the case. I discuss this in a post below, but by the time Mossadegh was removed he had used a fraudulent plebiscite (claimed a 99.94% victory) to dissolve the parliament he had been feuding with and rule entirely by fiat. The Shah also wasn't installed by the U.S., he had…

Can you explain to what extent the US coup fits in to all this?

I’m curious about GP’s reply. The nuance about the British wanting a PM they’d be able to sway is a piece I hadn’t heard before. Oil/nationalization of the Anglo Iranian Oil Company still seems like a key flashpoint in UK/US opposition regardless of what they considered doing instead.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#134

Post by drstewart »

hairofadog wrote: post #91

It’s worth noting that Iran was a democracy until the 1953, when the US and UK supported a coup to install a corrupt dictator so they could avoid paying oil fees. The 1979 Iranian revolution was the pendulum swinging back hard the other way. I’m in no way supporting Iran’s religious extremism or current government, but they are monsters that we created. The coup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%…

Okay, but why are you blaming the UK when the Romans invaded in the 40s AD? And of course the US was created from the UK.

So surely that means it's actually all Italy's fault by your logic. These countries didn't have their own agency.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#135

Post by onos »

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #121
bnralt wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s worth noting that Iran was a democracy until the 1953, when the US and UK supported a coup to install a corrupt dictator This simply wasn't the case. I discuss this in a post below, but by the time Mossadegh was removed he had used a fraudulent plebiscite (claimed a 99.94% victory) to dissolve the parliament he had been feuding with and rule entirely by fiat. The Shah also wasn't installed by the U.S., he had…

Can you explain to what extent the US coup fits in to all this?

I just read the Wikipedia link in the parent of this thread and it covers it in very interesting detail. Lots of moving parts, and I can’t give a synthesis. But this includes: nationalization of the oil fields that broke prior agreements with Britain (big money maker for Britain, but a bad deal for Iran), gradual move towards authoritarian leadership by Mosaddegh as his popularity waned due to economic hardship after a British oil embargo following the nationalization, Mosaddegh alignment with communists. Seems like there was both western meddling and also inherent power struggle happening in the country at that time. USA supported shah but who they should support was actually under debate. It states the USA coup attempt actually failed but may have precipitated the successful one, which was possibly natural. Finally, USA broke the British monopoly after the coup and Iran did get much more money from their oil after this.

please correct if I got anything wrong here.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#136

Post by pm90 »

itshossein wrote: post #104
hairofadog wrote: post #91

It’s worth noting that Iran was a democracy until the 1953, when the US and UK supported a coup to install a corrupt dictator so they could avoid paying oil fees. The 1979 Iranian revolution was the pendulum swinging back hard the other way. I’m in no way supporting Iran’s religious extremism or current government, but they are monsters that we created. The coup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%…

It's way far more complicated than simply a coup. Though it defenitly was a terrible thing to happen. Iran has never had an effective justice system (religous reasons / kings' economic monopolies). Without one, nothing like a democracy is possible. It was democratic just on the paper.

Democratic forms of Government don’t just materialize out of thin air. They start off pretty messy with a mix of democratic and un democratic elements. Institutional capacity is then built and strengthened over time.

Iran was certainly on a more democratic path then.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#137

Post by simonebrunozzi »

Eisenstein wrote: post #122
hairofadog wrote: post #91

It’s worth noting that Iran was a democracy until the 1953, when the US and UK supported a coup to install a corrupt dictator so they could avoid paying oil fees. The 1979 Iranian revolution was the pendulum swinging back hard the other way. I’m in no way supporting Iran’s religious extremism or current government, but they are monsters that we created. The coup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%…

> but they are monsters that we created. I think we should be careful using wording like that. The Iranians have agency and can do things on their own. Just because the west meddled in things doesn't give us the right to claim the results as ours, be they good or bad.

I see your answer as very naive.

Of course Iranians have agency as individuals; but it's very clear at this point in history that most of the 20th century has been dominated by US strategic decisions, and that "the US and UK supported a coup" is factually true.

I am Italian, I believe Italians have agency, too, and yet some of our past governments were inches away from being "guided" in a different direction by the CIA or other US agencies [0].

[0]: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/all-feasible-means

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#138

Post by bnralt »

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #121
bnralt wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s worth noting that Iran was a democracy until the 1953, when the US and UK supported a coup to install a corrupt dictator This simply wasn't the case. I discuss this in a post below, but by the time Mossadegh was removed he had used a fraudulent plebiscite (claimed a 99.94% victory) to dissolve the parliament he had been feuding with and rule entirely by fiat. The Shah also wasn't installed by the U.S., he had…

Can you explain to what extent the US coup fits in to all this?

This is a decent article that covers U.S. involvement:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150820164417/https://www.forei...

Basically, when the U.S. saw opposition to Mossadegh growing they tried to organize and fund the opposition forces against him, while also lobbying the Shah to have him dismissed. The Shah was reluctant at first, but finally agreed as Mossadegh's efforts to gain political control progressed. The strategy the CIA envisioned failed, however (Mossadegh refused to step down when the Shah dismissed him and began arresting opposition). At this point the United States thought that Mossadegh would remain in power, but opposition groups inside Iran reorganized and removed Mossadegh.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#139

Post by josh_fyi »

JZM8yKnRvGv wrote: post #98
josh_fyi wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An Arab party and two leftist parties were in the last coalition, though the Arab party was Islamist and the leftists parties were not Arab parties.

AFAIK from 2019 to 2022 there were five elections, all of them where won by the center right (the center or the right) The right is (was) led by Netanyahu, the center by Ganz, a retired military general, former ministry of defense. Not exactly two champions of progressivism. I don't recall a victory of the left or the Arab parties in Israel, maybe it's because, like in Iran, the situation in the area forces them to a…

Referring to the most recent coalition, as listed here,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-sixth_government_of_Isr...

The Islamist party I mentioned was United Arab List and the leftist ones I mentioned were Labor and Meretz.

Re: Iran abolishes morality police

#140

Post by medo-bear »

Eisenstein wrote: post #122
hairofadog wrote: post #91

It’s worth noting that Iran was a democracy until the 1953, when the US and UK supported a coup to install a corrupt dictator so they could avoid paying oil fees. The 1979 Iranian revolution was the pendulum swinging back hard the other way. I’m in no way supporting Iran’s religious extremism or current government, but they are monsters that we created. The coup: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%…

> but they are monsters that we created. I think we should be careful using wording like that. The Iranians have agency and can do things on their own. Just because the west meddled in things doesn't give us the right to claim the results as ours, be they good or bad.

sure it does
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