France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel • Hacker News Board

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#61

Post by yonaguska » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:41 PM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #12

The U.S. has seemingly done the opposite. Nonstop flights have all but vanished completely. What used to be a few hours on a cross-country nonstop flight has now become two to four connecting regional flights that start to approach international flight times in total. Does anyone know what's going on with no nonstop flights anymore?

Flying is more expensive than it used to be, demand has dropped. At least for me, the additional COVID security theater, as well as frustratingly high rental car prices has made it a no brainer. I'll just drive. At least the covid theater is going away, it seems. Airlines are losing money if a plane is empty. Until demand for those nonstop routes pick up, those routes will not be revived.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#62

Post by wwqrd » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

SanjayMehta wrote: post #18

bsaul wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes ! Absolutely, pardon my chauvinism. Germans have taken the crown on this topic. They’re on another scale.

Can anyone point a bemused me to any document which explains why Germany decided to shut down their nuclear power plants? I can't understand how wind and solar will provide power 24 hours day.

They switched for coal.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#63

Post by thiht » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:43 PM UTC

bsaul wrote: post #5

Bet : How long until this completely absurd measure shows its first detrimental unexpected side effect ? We french are really kings for disturbing markets because of ideology. used to be socialism, now it’s eco-bullshit ( ) ( ) eco bullshit looks just like environmental activism, except it makes 0 environmental impact, is 100% about politics and can destroy economies in less than 10 years.

How is this "completely absurd"? Using the train instead of the plane if you can do it in less than 2h30 doesn't seem absurd to me. Honestly if I saw that I could go somewhere in 2h30, it would not even cross my mind to check plane transits. Like really, I would not even think of it. I think I would start considering the plane starting at maybe 4 hours transits.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#64

Post by ulfw » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:43 PM UTC

throw_m239339 wrote: post #20

mojuba wrote: post #16

I understand the criticism but to be fair high speed trains are better in many cases: Paris - Lyon by airplane: 1h15 plus travel to and from airport, plus security, boarding etc Paris - Lyon by train: 2h30, city center to city center, no security checks. This might actually be faster! Personally when traveling between London and Paris I choose the high speed train. It's usually more expensive but just the fact it rem…

It costs me around 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by plane. It costs me way more than 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by train. This why people are taking the plane, because it's less expensive that high speed rail, nothing more. Make high speed rail less expensive and people will take the train. Government induced free market distortion under pretense of ecology concerns is just what it is, bullshit, and…

What does France to Switzerland even mean? They border each other. You could walk.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#65

Post by doikor » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:43 PM UTC

Tpt wrote: post #34

the_why_of_y wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jet fuel is tax free in the EU, a huge market-distorting subsidy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene_tax However, as of 2018, commercial kerosene consumption is currently tax exempt under the legislation of all member states of the European Union.

Rail lines are massively subsidized and the French government is regularly bailing out SNCF (the national rail company). So imho it not clear that the global market distortion is in the favor of plane.

Many airports are also subsidized. Basically every kind of transportation is subsidized to the point that figuring out the true cost is really hard.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#66

Post by retinaros » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

helmholtz wrote: post #11

bsaul wrote: post #5

Bet : How long until this completely absurd measure shows its first detrimental unexpected side effect ? We french are really kings for disturbing markets because of ideology. used to be socialism, now it’s eco-bullshit ( ) ( ) eco bullshit looks just like environmental activism, except it makes 0 environmental impact, is 100% about politics and can destroy economies in less than 10 years.

Your comment is high on inflamatory polemics but lacking in substance. If you'd listed _what_ side effects you do foresee, that would have been a much more interesting comment.

side effect is creating a monopoly for trains which will lead in the coming years to stellar increase in ticket price. its fairly obvious

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#67

Post by lores » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:46 PM UTC

Tpt wrote: post #34

the_why_of_y wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jet fuel is tax free in the EU, a huge market-distorting subsidy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene_tax However, as of 2018, commercial kerosene consumption is currently tax exempt under the legislation of all member states of the European Union.

Rail lines are massively subsidized and the French government is regularly bailing out SNCF (the national rail company). So imho it not clear that the global market distortion is in the favor of plane.

Just like cars are heavily subsidised through motorway building. Every form of transport receives subsidies as a public good, even in countries where transport infrastructure is nominally privatised. This is one area where letting the free market decide invariably ends in disaster.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#68

Post by joking » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:49 PM UTC

mojuba wrote: post #16

I understand the criticism but to be fair high speed trains are better in many cases: Paris - Lyon by airplane: 1h15 plus travel to and from airport, plus security, boarding etc Paris - Lyon by train: 2h30, city center to city center, no security checks. This might actually be faster! Personally when traveling between London and Paris I choose the high speed train. It's usually more expensive but just the fact it rem…

That’s correct if everyone traveled from city center to city center, but in my case, the airport is easier to get than the hsr station, has more long time parking options, and sometimes the destination is a layover, so I would have to go from the center of paris to the airport equally. I Would love to travel a lot more by train, or less by plane, but right now and at least in my case, it’s not a very good option.

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#69

Post by linuxftw » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 1:52 PM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #12

The U.S. has seemingly done the opposite. Nonstop flights have all but vanished completely. What used to be a few hours on a cross-country nonstop flight has now become two to four connecting regional flights that start to approach international flight times in total. Does anyone know what's going on with no nonstop flights anymore?

20 years ago, there were many more airlines in the US [1]. Many of these airlines, while 'national,' were mostly regional, and serviced particular routes. As the airlines have merged, not only have costs gone up, but routes have gone down because the big players aren't competing with each other. In fact, they were found guilty of price collusion with the whole 'capacity discipline' scandal.

Another thing to consider is the airports themselves. It's impossible for new carriers to introduce new routes in many instances because the airports cannot accommodate any more planes. Air traffic has gone from around 2B travelers per year in 2004 to 4.7B in 2019 [2]. I'm willing to bet terminals, gates, and runways have not gone up 250% in the same time period (it's likely air traffic has increased more in developing nations relative to the US, but I'm sure the US still accounts for a fair amount of this growth).

Personally speaking, I have never had more than 1 connection each way to anywhere in the US. I only fly major carriers and live near a decent sized international airport. I also travel any day or time, depending on which flights I like best, not necessarily the cheapest flights. It might be a worse experience if you're always shopping for the cheapest flight.

1: https://www.businessinsider.com/airline-mergers-and-acquisit... 2: https://www.statista.com/statistics/564717/airline-industry-...

Re: France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of train travel

#70

Post by kibwen » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 2:00 PM UTC

yonaguska wrote: post #61

bmitc wrote: post #12

The U.S. has seemingly done the opposite. Nonstop flights have all but vanished completely. What used to be a few hours on a cross-country nonstop flight has now become two to four connecting regional flights that start to approach international flight times in total. Does anyone know what's going on with no nonstop flights anymore?

Flying is more expensive than it used to be, demand has dropped. At least for me, the additional COVID security theater, as well as frustratingly high rental car prices has made it a no brainer. I'll just drive. At least the covid theater is going away, it seems. Airlines are losing money if a plane is empty. Until demand for those nonstop routes pick up, those routes will not be revived.

Same sentiment. Airports are a pain to get to, security is a pain, taking time to account for the variable length of the security line is a pain, checking your baggage is a pain, dealing with the race for the overhead bin space is a pain, the inevitable delays that will ruin your whole itinerary are a pain, the lack of legroom is a pain... For destinations on the east coast (where Amtrak is actually reliable) I've begun taking trains to the exclusion of flying. Slower, but more comfortable, and I can get work done or just relax without being crammed into a sardine can.