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Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

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Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#61

Post by themitigating »

halfjoking wrote: post #45
tj-teej wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only goes against his "free speech thing" if his "free speech thing" was actually a coherent ideology. Instead his "free speech absolutism" is a brand, it's there to signal what kind of person he is, it's not a set of principles and therefore cannot stand up to scrutiny.

Musk has repeatedly said that inciting violence will be banned while other forms of speech will be allowed. So I think he has a coherent ideology, but it still depends on a judgment call. When Kanye says he "loves Nazis" one could make the judgment he's endorsing violence against Jews because the context involves the history of what Nazis did. When Trump said on Jan 6th he wants his supporters to "fight" to "stop the…

How was (paraphrasing) "going defcon on the jews" not inciting violence?

Edit: I want to add that I don't believe this is due to his manic depressive disorder but because he's a naraasstic asshole. Posting a picture of a swastika then saying how the Nazis and Hitler are great is the most obvious way to get attention.

Fuck Kayne West

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#62

Post by allears »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #13
martythemaniak wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered, what are people like you doing on HN anyway, a forum that is really far away from any notion of free speech.

What's the point in getting someone who already agrees to listen? You want to find those willing to listen that don't agree. I don't want to reinforce my ego that I have people agreeing with me, I could get plenty of that if I wanted, I want those disagreeing and willing to listen to see the other side. I want to see what's actually a convincing argument that's changing opinion. But hey, everyone's so used to the lik…

Have you read Karl Popper's "The Paradox of Tolerance?" Here's a link:

https://twitter.com/iamlejo/status/1331963359529414662/photo...

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#63

Post by scythe »

This argument can be simplified as a nonalemma. You can promote or suppress content by centralized, decentralized, or null mechanisms. So nine combinations:

No promotion, no suppression: chatter (the early Internet)

Centralized promotion and centralized or no suppression: traditional media

Centralized promotion, decentralized suppression: modern electoral politics, basically

No promotion, any suppression: silence (obviously)

Decentralized promotion, decentralized suppression: echo-chamber/hive-mind/hug-box, see also: why FB/Twitter don't have downvotes, and Reddit discourages them

Decentralized promotion, no suppression: inflammatory content takes over

Decentralized promotion, centralized suppression: the modern social media model

But wait, there's a bonus:

Decentralized promotion, semi-centralized (approved user) suppression: Hacker News

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#64

Post by scythe »

cypress66 wrote: post #26

He probably got scared by advertisers or Apple or something. Ideally in my opinion, Twitter should have a setting by default that hides all of that content, but if you disable it you get 4chan-like moderation (so anything that's legal). In countries with a lesser degree of freedom of speech (I think swastikas are illegal in Germany for example), you wouldn't be able to disable that setting.

My idea, which I've posted before, is that you require users to pay to turn off the filter. (After all, if they're bad for ad revenue, they can't be "the product".) This also mostly enforces region-locking, at least requiring some effort to bypass.

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#65

Post by [deleted] »

TylerE wrote: post #40
colordrops wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he post a swastika? I'm not aware of what exactly got him banned. Wasn't Elon talking about the US anyway? Political speech itself is banned in many countries, so surely that wasn't his measure.

Literally yes. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/dec/02/kanye-west-sus...

[deleted]

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#66

Post by mmcdermott »

machina_ex_deus wrote: post #47
jcranmer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hate speech is constitutionally-protected free speech. > mocking presidents ditto. The only things that are actively illegal in the US on the list in the article are CSAM and copyright infringement. There are examples that are illegal in other countries, but in the US, vanishingly little speech can be illegal.

I don't think HN is the DMCA fans crowd, so what exactly triggered everyone? The hate speech?

I think "freedom of speech" is used in two senses, generally without qualification. The post above references freedom of speech with regards to what is illegal by the government and is, so far as I know, correct. There is almost no speech that is illegal by force of law in the United States.

The other usage of the term is more of a principle. That citizens of the United States expect its various institutions to uphold the spirit of the First Amendment even though it isn't a legal requirement. That, in an ideal place, your Twitters and Facebooks would adopt a stance similar to the federal government.

There are factors that complect it. Social media platforms are basically entertainment sites and so need to attract advertisers which is at odds with that thinking. Users of the site often want others deplatformed. Standards of legality vary. Then you have cases where the government attempts to influence the moderation standards of a platform, blurring the lines farther.

From my point of view, individual users wanting the opinion of others banned and government influence are the ones that are the most worrying, not least because of what they potentially signify for the future. No right will be maintained if the populace doesn't value its protection.

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#67

Post by _greim_ »

buzzdenver wrote: post #32

Elon went from free speech absolutist to "Twitter aims to serve center 80% of people, who wish to learn, laugh & engage in reasoned debate." Quite the u-turn. I'm sure he put zero thought into that 80% figure, but even banning 2% instead of 20% is a shockingly huge number.

It's unclear what "serving the center 80% means" but I doubt it means banning the remaining 20%.

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#68

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

nickthegreek wrote: post #57
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not relevant. Was his post blocked in those countries?

It is very relevant. His posts were blocked in every country (by removing his account). As an american, I dont expect to be banned from a social media company (ran in my country no less) because of a speech law halfway around the world. Elon isn't following policies, he is following his whim. The problem with that is all the previous moderation statements he made did not align with this banning.

> I dont expect to be banned from a social media company (ran in my country no less) because of a speech law halfway around the world

I expect that the whole account was banned worldwide, more because it made headline news (in the bad way) around the world. And so not banning Kanye's horrible, mentally ill, degrading and rather sad antics, would scare off the advertisers who pay the bills. I mean, the remaining advertisers.

> Elon isn't following policies, he is following his whim.

Agreed.

> The problem with that is all the previous moderation statements he made did not align with this banning

It's almost like it wasn't thought through. Like Elon still has no idea what he's doing.

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#69

Post by slibhb »

People want an algorithm for how to moderate speech. But there's no such thing. You just need people with good judgement and it's hard to define what good judgement is. HN has it.

Previous twitter did not have good judgement. It had a left-bias and banned people for saying things like "there are two genders" and "men aren't women tho". It also banned various accounts for jokes (prominently Babylon Bee, a right-wing The Onion).

It remains to be seen if Elon will do better or worse. I think he'll do better because he has a sense of humor. But he's also a bit obnoxious so we'll see.

Re: Elon: Let Me Help You Speed Run the Content Moderation Learning Curve

#70

Post by machina_ex_deus »

mikkergp wrote: post #56
machina_ex_deus wrote: post #4

90% of the problems come from laws not people. Except the CSAM laws (which are justified as they relate to real physical harm), I think all other laws shouldn't have existed. DMCA, hate speech, mocking presidents, it's all the same. If you're dealing with law might as well just pay good lawyers and stick to your principles instead of gently bending over.

How are CSAM laws only somewhat justified?

They are justified only up to the point where Apple starts scanning your personal photos and then the EU joins in requiring everyone else to do that too?

There are politicians constantly testing their legislation boundaries all over CSAM. It's getting abused to make proof of concepts that companies are willing to implement something, and then they extend it to other shit every time. You can't just slap the "for CSAM" label on increasingly ridiculous things. It needs to actually make sense.

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