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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#351

Post by kragen »

hammock wrote: post #242
kragen wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many surfactants are not sulfates many sulfates are not surfactants none of the numerous meanings in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES are in any way related to surfactants or sulfates many sulfates and surfactants are not 'harmful' as generally understood (though there's probably a lethal dose of any of them) why are you posting this misinformation here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethoxylation#Alcohol_ethoxysul...

while it is nice that you have cleared up what you meant by 'aes' (a third category which excludes not only most sulfates and most surfactants but even the most common surfactant that is also a sulfate, sds) you have not answered my question

why are you posting this egregious misinformation here

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#352

Post by kragen »

moloch-hai wrote: post #347
kragen wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

radon decays into dust in a couple of days, but natural gas deposits are tens of millions of years old and have been out of touch with potential radon-generating rocks for weeks or months by the time they reach your stove burner getting radon out does not cost money

In a week or three, anyway. Anywhere somebody has bothered to liquify the NG, the radon will have decayed before it gets vaporized again. Where pipelines lead straight to gas wells, the dwell time in the pipeline before it is burnt could be quite short. But there might be negligible radon even at the wellhead, as it would need to be picked up from surrounding rock on the way out, unlike e.g. helium which accumulates.…

good points

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#353

Post by nerdponx »

stephen_g wrote: post #216
m463 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder about sulfates, specifically SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate - which has many whack-a-mole names). SLS is a surficant, and although not named in this study, it has been shown in other studies to interfere with mucous membranes (canker sores, etc) I would wonder if that happens in the gut too. It is in many things. toothpaste, shampoo, dishwasher and laundry detergents, and lots more Since people are trying to avo…

The article references another article about SLS in toothpaste (unfortunately not accessible without paying) - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00016357.2019.1... Just seeing that makes me want to switch toothpaste. There looks to be an 'Oral B Toothpaste Pure' that doesn't have SLS or colourants, might give that a go.

Tom's of Maine has a "Botanically Bright" and "Botanically Fresh" brand that use some other dispersants instead of SLS, although who knows if that's any better: https://www.tomsofmaine.com/our-promise/ingredients/sodium-l...

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#354

Post by pja »

kleton wrote: post #252

Solid dishwasher powder doesn't seem to usually contain detergents. For one brand: Sodium Sulfate Sodium Carbonate Water Copolymer Of Acrylic Maleic And Sulphonic Acids Sodium Silicate Sodium Carbonate Peroxide PEG/PPG/Propylheptyl Ether Fragrances Subtilisin Amylase Enzyme Transitional Metal Catalyst Reactive Green 12 Copolymer Of Acrylic Maleic And Sulphonic Acids

> Sulphonic Acids

This is probably some kind of detergent, although there are lots of different sulphonic acids.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#355

Post by matthewdgreen »

alpos wrote: post #350

The news around this, this thread, and similar on Reddit seem to be assuming a jump that isn't supported in this paper. "The residue remaining after the rinse cycle varies between 1:250 to 1:667 for the dishwasher detergent and 1:2,000 to 1:10,000 dilutions for the rinse aid." This is actually an uncited claim in the paper, and the paper authors did not test it. "In the present study, we hypothesized that if the dete…

I can smell detergent scent on my dishes after a wash and rinse, even if I don’t use rinse aid. Maybe my dishwasher’s rinse cycle isn’t very good: but if so I imagine that I’m not alone.

I agree with what you’re saying here in terms of the raw findings, but I wonder if as a society we’re approaching this question wrong. Specifically: if I proved that dishwasher detergents contained a toxic chemical (say: arsenic), shouldn’t dishwasher detergent makers now bear the burden of proof for demonstrating that it doesn’t remain on dishes? And isn’t it reasonable for people to treat this as major, worrying news just based on the precautionary principle?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#356

Post by pja »

samtho wrote: post #215
hilbert42 wrote: post #212

It seems to me that a lazy person who reads or hears about this article and who worries about potential harm from dishwasher detergents is likely to run the cycle a second time with only water. A rough calculation would seem to indicate that a complete rinse-only cycle would reduce residue levels to well into the safety zone but at the cost of double the water and possibly double the power (if hot water were used). I…

Modern dish washers use under 4 gallons per cycle, so given you have at least one wash and one rise cycle, you’d only use a about 50% more if you are able to opt for rinse only. Compare that to a 2.2 gallon per minute water/efficient kitchen faucet where you’ll approach the amount of water consumed by your triple cycle load after just 5 minutes of leaving your water running.

A modern Bosch dishwasher will use 9.5 litres per cycle or IIRC 10l / cycle is a standard set in the EU, but I can’t find a reference right now.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#357

Post by e40 »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #355
alpos wrote: post #350

The news around this, this thread, and similar on Reddit seem to be assuming a jump that isn't supported in this paper. "The residue remaining after the rinse cycle varies between 1:250 to 1:667 for the dishwasher detergent and 1:2,000 to 1:10,000 dilutions for the rinse aid." This is actually an uncited claim in the paper, and the paper authors did not test it. "In the present study, we hypothesized that if the dete…

I can smell detergent scent on my dishes after a wash and rinse, even if I don’t use rinse aid. Maybe my dishwasher’s rinse cycle isn’t very good: but if so I imagine that I’m not alone. I agree with what you’re saying here in terms of the raw findings, but I wonder if as a society we’re approaching this question wrong. Specifically: if I proved that dishwasher detergents contained a toxic chemical (say: arsenic), sh…

To add to this. When I take dishes out of my dishwasher and rinse them manually, sometimes they feel slippery until I rinse the residue off them. I always wondered what that was. I think the detergent I use with my Miele (also made by them) includes a finishing agent, not sure. I will check and perhaps try something else for a while.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#358

Post by this_steve_j »

js2 wrote: post #149
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For everyone confused by this comment: In some countries you might find dishwashers with a sort of built-in water softener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt It's not common in the United States. Some all-in-one detergent packets might contain some amount of dishwasher salt, though.

Fisher & Paykel dish drawers have a salt-dispenser, at least my 2004 models do. They are (were?) designed in New Zealand but sold in the U.S. For a while they were sold rebranded by KitchenAid. My water isn't hard though so I haven't had to use any salt. (Aside, and I don't know if they are still any good, but these dish drawers are really well engineered. Mine had some problems early on that were resolved by small c…

The H series F&P dishwasher models have a built-in water softener. [0]

According to the user guide, a water softener is recommended if your municipal water hardness is >250ppm which would be quite hard for municipal tap water.

In my region of central Florida the city’s water quality report shows a hardness well below 250ppm, Which you can divide by 17.1 to determine how many grains of salt to take that with.

[0] https://www.fisherpaykel.com/us/dishwashing/all-dishwashers/

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#359

Post by larsnystrom »

joshenders wrote: post #328
someweirdperson wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a vacuum cleaner that can suck water, or are there vacuums that use water to clean the exhaust like scrubbers on ships do?

There is actually, it’s called Rainbow Vacuum. They used to (maybe still do?) sell them door to door MLM style but the vacuum is actually good in my experience with them.

My mother has one of these, but I didn't know its name until now! I actually remember the salesman coming to our home and showing us how it works. It's still going strong ~25 years later. I'm currently using a Miele something, but I'm always a little weirded out by the fact I have to change vacuum bags, because when I grew up we would just flush the dust down the toilet after vacuuming.

Now that I know what my mother's vacuum is called I'm a little tempted to get one myself...

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#360

Post by wtetzner »

Vrondi wrote: post #174
throwaway09223 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not common in the United States." If US folks are looking for this feature, it can be found on higher end Bosch dishwashers in the US. I have very hard water and a Bosch benchmark series. The water softener makes a huge difference. I don't want a whole-house softener because I don't enjoy the feel of softened water in the shower.

Everyone I've ever known with water hard enough to be a bother just installs a whole-house water softener, so all the water inside the house is already softened. Seems inefficient to soften only the dishwasher when a whole house system is pretty cheap.

How could it be less efficient to soften less water?
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