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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#171

Post by RetpolineDrama »

esaym wrote: post #125

Ok, so what do I use as a rinse aid then? I just dug all over amazon and pretty much everything has akoxylated alcohol or some form of polyoxypropylene laureth. And yes, I've purposely let the rinse aid run out just to see what happens. It wasn't pretty... Anyway to make something more "natural"? Some other ingredients I've seen include citric acid, urea, trisodium phosphate. But not sure if just mixing those togethe…

Install a whole home water filter so you're not washing your dishes in crap water anyways. I don't use rinse aids at all and my dishes come out spotless.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#172

Post by incongruity »

tsol wrote: post #158
modeless wrote: post #122

My son has eczema and food allergies and I did a lot of research on actions we could take to help prevent the so called "atopic march" to hay fever and asthma. There's a lot of woo-woo stuff out there that I think can be safely ignored, but I did find what I consider strong evidence that families that hand wash their dishes have significantly lower incidence of some allergic symptoms. I thought it sounded weird and I…

>There's a lot of woo-woo stuff out there that I think can be safely ignored, but I did find what I consider strong evidence that families that hand wash their dishes have significantly lower incidence of some allergic symptoms. Yes, I believe there are studies that have found households that use detergents to wash their dishes have significantly high rates of allergies than households that only hand wash dishes. Aft…

So, pragmatically, we can’t not use our dishwasher - time is just not available given some other constraints. Given that, do you have any suggestions from your reading about less harmful detergent replacements?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#173

Post by Vrondi »

jkepler wrote: post #152
JonathonW wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, they've only tested one professional dishwasher and one household dishwasher using one specific formulation of rinse aid. There's enough here to indicate a need for further investigation, but not enough data to come to any overall conclusions about commercial or household dishwasher safety in general.

They call for further study at the end, acknowledging that their data was all /in vivo/ in a lab, and not direct data in humans. Thus, while they claim to have demonstrated a mechanism, they make no claims that it works the same way in people.

"In vivo" means in a living body. "In vitro" means in the lab/petri dish.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#174

Post by Vrondi »

throwaway09223 wrote: post #86
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For everyone confused by this comment: In some countries you might find dishwashers with a sort of built-in water softener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt It's not common in the United States. Some all-in-one detergent packets might contain some amount of dishwasher salt, though.

"It's not common in the United States." If US folks are looking for this feature, it can be found on higher end Bosch dishwashers in the US. I have very hard water and a Bosch benchmark series. The water softener makes a huge difference. I don't want a whole-house softener because I don't enjoy the feel of softened water in the shower.

Everyone I've ever known with water hard enough to be a bother just installs a whole-house water softener, so all the water inside the house is already softened. Seems inefficient to soften only the dishwasher when a whole house system is pretty cheap.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#175

Post by nerdponx »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #123
nerdponx wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't use the damn pouches! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

A. Watch his follow up video. Where he talks about all he got wrong. B. I recently switched to a more “natural” SevenGenerations pouch and holy crap it’s been excellent. C. You can not buy anything but pods at two of my grocery stores. You need to go to Walmart near me to find any straight powder. Market has spoken right or wrong.

> Market has spoken right or wrong.

I call BS on this. The non-pouch detergents disappeared, that much I know. I strongly doubt people had stopped buying gel and powder. I suspect that some bright bulb at Johnson & Johnson or wherever did the math and realized that pouch margins were higher than gel and powder margins.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#176

Post by Vrondi »

casion wrote: post #26
RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm wrote: post #22

Rinse aid is completely unneeded if you properly maintain and use your dishwasher. I never use any, and my dishes are completely spotless. 30 years old dishwasher, super hard water. Specifically, you should: - always fill the salt of the dishwasher's water softener once it's empty. It cannot soften the water if it doesn't get cleaned by the salt. If the water is not softened you will get spots. EDIT: Apparently US fo…

Fill the salt? Configure for water hardness? I've never heard of either of these things before. Certainly not things on my, relatively fancy, dishwasher.

Apparently in Europe and some other countries they don't do whole house water softeners?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#177

Post by Mistletoe »

This isn’t a great way to test this.

It’s a good way to begin exploring it.

>Enterocytic liquid-liquid interfaces were established on permeable supports

https://bioduro-sundia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/caco-2...

This is like a fake very fragile layer of cells cultured on a membrane. It’s good for preliminary data but it needs follow up data in vivo.

Caveats off the top of my head-

1. Your real gut is massively more robust than Caco-2 cells grown as a monolayer on a support. You’ve got blood supply, lympathic system, villi and connective tissue, layer upon layer of cells covered in mucus- just a completely different ballgame.

2. Rinse aid would first go through your stomach, exposed to acid, be absorbed maybe, have pancreatic secretions added to it, have food with it and all the lipids, very long list.

3. What’s the concentration of rinse aid you actually absorb from your dishes? 1:20,000 doesn’t seem like enough dilution to me but maybe they address that.

Nevertheless I won’t use rinse aid again. :) It’s not necessary for my dishes and it isn’t even worth the cost.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#178

Post by kibibu »

jkepler wrote: post #157
wobbly_bush wrote: post #4

Is my reading of the summary correct that it is only (or mainly?) talking about rinse aid and not about the detergent?

Yes, but they also didn't study how this affects people---their work was all /in vivo/, and they call for more study at the end.

I think you mean in vitro. There are no animal trials at all.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#179

Post by kibibu »

Konohamaru wrote: post #25

What is the solution? (Don't have the focus to read, understand, and analyze the scientific paper atm.)

For household concentrations (1:80,000) they didn't find any toxicity, so if your gut health is ok I wouldn't really worry about it

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#180

Post by balls187 »

hindsightbias wrote: post #162
bonniemuffin wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is a microwave related to this article/discussion?

What happens when you microwave a detergent covered bowl? Or a plastic bowl? Not to mention a burrito wrapped in plastic… You are what you eat.

I generally don’t eat burritos wrapped in plastic.
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