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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#51
post #11

maybe dont wash them that often

You should start a business: a restaurant that serves your food on the previous diner's unwashed dishes. It would be like my college apartment kitchen, so you could hire me as manager.

The Healthy Gut Epithelium Restaurant*.

*you might die of other causes, though

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#52

Is my reading of the summary correct that it is only (or mainly?) talking about rinse aid and not about the detergent?

Rinse aid and detergent both have the same active, harmful ingredient: sulfates aka AES aka surfactants. The difference is that detergent gets rinsed off, while rinse aid IS the rinse (vs plain non-aided water).

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#55
post #14

Ironically, the summary isn't as good as the "Key Messages" section at the bottom: > * Professional dishwasher rinse aid causes cellular cytotoxicity and directly impaired barrier integrity of gut epithelial cells by damaging TJ and AJ expressions in daily exposed concentrations. > * The underlying mechanisms of epithelial barrier disruption in response to rinse aid were cell death in 1:10,000 dilutions and epithelia…

Yeah in industry they are often called sanitizers because the purpose and mechanism are fundamentally different from the home ones people are familiar with. Or as a common chef quip: "the dishwasher is the guy running it, the machine is a sanitizer."

They are notoriously bad at removing food residue, which must be sprayed or scraped off before running. Anything more than trace is cooked onto the dishes. They're really good at removing thin layers of grease quickly, and sanitizing. Doesn't surprise me at all that they don't do a final rinse; handling stuff right out of them leaves a distinct feeling on your fingers, like the opposite of bleach kinda. You have more friction than you should until they fully dry, it's very noticeable.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#56
post #14

Ironically, the summary isn't as good as the "Key Messages" section at the bottom: > * Professional dishwasher rinse aid causes cellular cytotoxicity and directly impaired barrier integrity of gut epithelial cells by damaging TJ and AJ expressions in daily exposed concentrations. > * The underlying mechanisms of epithelial barrier disruption in response to rinse aid were cell death in 1:10,000 dilutions and epithelia…

Importantly, when they tested a household dishwasher, they didn't find the same issues: > In contrast, the residual substances on the cups washed in a household dishwasher with detergent B were not present at sufficiently high concentrations to exert cytotoxicity and impair the epithelial barrier function (see Fig E9).

Also, they've only tested one professional dishwasher and one household dishwasher using one specific formulation of rinse aid.

There's enough here to indicate a need for further investigation, but not enough data to come to any overall conclusions about commercial or household dishwasher safety in general.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#57
post #26

Rinse aid is completely unneeded if you properly maintain and use your dishwasher. I never use any, and my dishes are completely spotless. 30 years old dishwasher, super hard water. Specifically, you should: - always fill the salt of the dishwasher's water softener once it's empty. It cannot soften the water if it doesn't get cleaned by the salt. If the water is not softened you will get spots. EDIT: Apparently US fo…

Fill the salt? Configure for water hardness? I've never heard of either of these things before. Certainly not things on my, relatively fancy, dishwasher.

US consumers are easier to sell to, perhaps.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#58
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Miele has a water softener feature. That's the only time I've heard of it in the US.

There are a few Bosch models with dishwasher salt dispensers, but it’s extremely rare in the US. It’s a great idea, given most municipalities have hard water.

Yeah I need it with my well water. But generally we just put up with spotty dinnerware. If we have guests over, we'll wash whatever by hand before.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#59

Rinse aid is completely unneeded if you properly maintain and use your dishwasher. I never use any, and my dishes are completely spotless. 30 years old dishwasher, super hard water. Specifically, you should: - always fill the salt of the dishwasher's water softener once it's empty. It cannot soften the water if it doesn't get cleaned by the salt. If the water is not softened you will get spots. EDIT: Apparently US fo…

For everyone confused by this comment: In some countries you might find dishwashers with a sort of built-in water softener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt It's not common in the United States. Some all-in-one detergent packets might contain some amount of dishwasher salt, though.

In my limited experience in the several places I've lived in the US, only one had an issue with water that was hard enough to need addressing. Most residences there had a dedicated household water softener, so even there the dishwashers didn't need to do their own softening.

Here's a nice map [1]

[1] https://homewater101.com/articles/hard-water-across-us

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#60

What the hell is rinse aid anyway

It’s just surfactants. Aka detergent. That doesn’t get rinsed off, it gets “rinsed on.” It’s function is to make water bead off the glass so that water spots are not left
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