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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#361

Post by bcrosby95 »

throwaway365435 wrote: post #338
jiggyjace wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from Arizona and have thus wondered this and researched the perceived water dilemma myself. Fabs do need a considerable injection of water to start, but their systems are so advanced and their logistics so efficient that they end up reusing so much of it over time. Couple this with the fact that Arizona also has a great infrastructure already in place for water reuse and conservation. When Arizona had only 700,00…

As an Arizona native, occasionally my paranoia about living in a desert and simultaneously living through world wide climate change begins to really worry me. Inevitably I come to a conclusion that is very similar to yours. Arizona is pretty low on priority for water from the Colorado River and does a great job with water reclamation. That being said, I worry if I'm just believing what I want to hear

At the very least, living in a desert is better for climate change than living somewhere you need to burn fossil fuels for heating.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#362

Post by knolax »

baybal2 wrote: post #20
rjzzleep wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also building a fab in Japan and that one seems to be progressing much faster. About the Invasion of Taiwan, I kinda doubt it. They just had local elections and the president Tsai said it would be a referendum on her stance against China[1]. IF that is really the case then it seems like the Taiwanese people have voted against being turned into another Ukraine.[2] I am not currently in Taiwan, but a couple of…

> b) we also have to be a bit realistic about the facts on the ground. Realistic facts on the ground for you: The prime majority of rural Taiwanese who don't speak English are even bigger sinophobes, and have even less relation with the mainland. Most Sinophilic area in TW is Taipei, where the highest concentration of migrants from China live, and from where the lion share of immigrants to US comes from. What "facts…

And the mainland is full of Russians pretending to be Chinese like you used to say? You yourself have a massive personal chip on your shoulder against both Taiwan and the mainland. Your anecdote means very little.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#363

Post by deltaseventhree »

galangalalgol wrote: post #341
deltaseventhree wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stock price encompasses many things. Overall outlook is good. However the Arizona plant is not a good move for the company. Your post looks like a rationalization of your own purchasing decisions. If this is a correct observation I would self reflect on your own biases.

After flooding took out most of the world's magnetic hard drive manufacturing capacity, it seemed clear that absolute efficiency in the immediate sense was the enemy of a robust long term manufacturer. I'm not sure why human v human threats are being heeded when nature v human ones were not, but diversifying your locations absolutely makes sense. There are some geographic constraints to where locating fabs make sense…

Vietnam, Korea, many parts of Asia. The US is a arbitrary choice. It is done because of the shared rivalry the US has with Taiwan against China.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#364

Post by davrosthedalek »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #353
coredog64 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. GMAFB. Intel has several of their fabs in the Phoenix metro area, they’re another 3-5 major players in the area, and there’s a talent pipeline from the local University into these companies. Intel’s problems aren’t an inability to fab, it’s an inability to translate their design l…

It's universally well known that Asian workers work harder and can be paid less. It's not just about intels capabilities. It's about economic wage standards. The cost is just too high in the US. That being said tsmc workers in Taiwan are by far more capable then Intel this is proven by the 3nm process of which Intel is completely incapable of achieving.

What percentage of the chip cost is the wage cost? This might be relevant for a 90uM process, but I think at 4nm, the wages are a minuscule part of the production costs.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#365

Post by HDThoreaun »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #347
HDThoreaun wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tsmc is not coming here because it's an economically wise move. No, it's an economically wise move because of the politics. This plant allows TSMC to gets the CHIPS subsidy, but maybe more importantly it allows them to become part of the military industrial complex which requires that products are made domestically. This fab will print money.

The subsidies make the plant break even. Defense spending is basically another subsidy. Most of the weapons the US makes is useless in a civilization that has mostly been at peace for a long time. Hard to say how far defense will go though in terms of spending. You are definitive about defense spending in a recession. This is wrong. Aspects of the government will begin pulling back. We do not know how this will effec…

> Aspects of the government will begin pulling back.

Defense spending never goes down. It's a key way the government injects money into the economy during recessions.

> The CEO of tsmc mark liu stated this to Nancy pelosi during her visit

Every CEO tells politicians to give them more money, that isn't evidence of shit other than being competent.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#366

Post by deltaseventhree »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #365
deltaseventhree wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subsidies make the plant break even. Defense spending is basically another subsidy. Most of the weapons the US makes is useless in a civilization that has mostly been at peace for a long time. Hard to say how far defense will go though in terms of spending. You are definitive about defense spending in a recession. This is wrong. Aspects of the government will begin pulling back. We do not know how this will effec…

> Aspects of the government will begin pulling back. Defense spending never goes down. It's a key way the government injects money into the economy during recessions. > The CEO of tsmc mark liu stated this to Nancy pelosi during her visit Every CEO tells politicians to give them more money, that isn't evidence of shit other than being competent.

Inflation is a problem right now. A huge problem. The recession is actually the result of the government pulling back. It is a necessary action.

Interest rates will increase spending will be pulled back to stop inflation. A recession is the tool being used to stop inflation.

The CEO did not ask for money. The money was already given. The CEO was simply stating the status quo. Helping her come to terms realistically with what is truly going on with the Arizona plant. Look it up.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#367

Post by dgfitz »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #359
chrischen wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if TSMC is not doing anything valuable then someone tell the shareholders because ASML is worth almost only half of TSMC.

Why is Apple worth more than ARM and TSMC?

Software

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#368

Post by deltaseventhree »

boc wrote: post #357
deltaseventhree wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is categorically NOT a huge win for the stock. This is all happening because of US subsidies. The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. The subsidies only make this a viable option for political reasons. The decision to create a fab in Arizona is strictly speaking unprofitable and essentially a economically irrational mo…

> The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. Putting the rest of your statement aside, this is a very silly thing to say. The United States invented the IC and started silicon age. Integrated circuits made in Silicon Valley were literally on the moon at the same time that Taiwan was still an incredibly poor country living un…

Things change. As of right now the US can't compete.

In the past the US could compete, but that doesn't speak to the status quo.

In the future the US may change but this is unknown. It may very well be the US will never recover. This is a realistic possibility.

Either way the status quo is that the US is currently inferior to Asia in terms of semiconductors.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#369

Post by deltaseventhree »

davrosthedalek wrote: post #364
deltaseventhree wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's universally well known that Asian workers work harder and can be paid less. It's not just about intels capabilities. It's about economic wage standards. The cost is just too high in the US. That being said tsmc workers in Taiwan are by far more capable then Intel this is proven by the 3nm process of which Intel is completely incapable of achieving.

What percentage of the chip cost is the wage cost? This might be relevant for a 90uM process, but I think at 4nm, the wages are a minuscule part of the production costs.

Should be a huge portion of the cost. The material is just silicon. The expertise and know how that goes into this is where most of the money goes. For Taiwan, this expertise is better, faster and cheaper.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#370

Post by [deleted] »

MikePlacid wrote: post #356
philliphaydon wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taiwan and China being one nation is the policy of the governments of both China and Taiwan. No one in Taiwan and not even the current government consider China/Taiwan together. When KMT fled and created the constitution they claim China. Taiwan is now stuck in limbo because the people just want to live their lives in peace and already consider themselves Taiwanese and independent. But if they change the constituti…

The pro-independence party just suffered a major loss in local elections. The prime-minister who invited Nancy Pelosi for a provocative visit had to resign. Looks like Taiwanese people are not very enthusiastic about becoming a new Ukraine.

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