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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#121

Post by ekianjo »

vetinari wrote: post #60
jwr wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're experiencing the hard way how's like depending on the energy and resources of warmongering criminal dictators I'm not sure we're learning, though. At the moment, it seems that we are not only still buying the energy and resources from said warmongering criminal dictators (thus funding their war of aggression), but also setting up institutions to patrol gas pipelines, so that said dictator cannot blow them up…

> (thus funding their war of aggression) I see this repeated as a matra, in a way of Carthago delenda est. But it is not true. Said warmongering dictators do not need dollars or euros to wage any war. The entire chain of the war machine is in local currency, backed by local resources. They do not need anything there, that has to be bought for dollars or euros. They are not some third would countries that have to buy…

> They do not need anything there, that has to be bought for dollars or euros. They are not some third would countries that have to buy their weapons abroad.

they had their local currency forever. yet they developed very fast exactly at the same time as we started buying their goods. its not a coincidence. and yes China is a third world country by all metrics, its not because you have very modern centers like Shanghai, Beijing and more big cities like that that there is not utter misery in the countryside that would make you blush

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#122

Post by float4 »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #106
huijzer wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Europe is doing pretty good due to having a monopoly on making chip making machines via ASML in the Netherlands which relies heavily on Carl Zeiss in Germany. Fun fact by the way, at some point Japan and Europe were very close in state-of-the-art semiconductor manufacturing while the US didn’t have the capabilities anymore because it was outcompeted by Japan. At that point, the US donated funds and 20 years…

Yeah, but local fabs in Europe are far, far away from Intel, TSMC and Samsung. Infineon, NXP and STM are wayy behind.

Why do we even want cutting edge fabs in Europe? We have no companies that design cutting edge logic chips here. Literally none. Why invest 20 billion dollars (or what is the price of a cutting edge fab these days?) to create supply without demand?

Or do we seriously expect that US companies will generate significant demand even though TSMC and Samsung are already building heavily subsidized fabs in the US?

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#123

Post by d3ckard »

phpisthebest wrote: post #95
totalZero wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple spent something like a half-trillion on share buybacks. They could have averted this crisis a decade ago by thinking strategically. They didn't. Why give them credit where little or no credit is due?

Quoted post unavailable.

Don't want to start a fight, but honestly, I only ever hear those types of arguments from people who don't use Apple hardware.

People who do, in large majority, do it for two reasons: - build quality; - it mostly just works.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#124

Post by ekianjo »

Rinzler89 wrote: post #85
pjc50 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an "EU Chips Act" happening as well: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/09/a-revitalized-semicon... It makes sense. ASML are in the Netherlands, as are NXP. ST are in France. Germany has quite a bit of semiconductor production for the automotive industry. It'll be slow and expensive to get there though. There's not many places in the EU where you could simply drop a Shenzen in, demolishing historic buildings…

> ST are in France. Yeah, about that: "STMicroelectronics N.V. commonly referred as ST or STMicro is a Dutch multinational corporation and technology company of French-Italian origin headquartered in Plan-les-Ouates near Geneva, Switzerland" The lengths French and Italian corporations will go to to avoid taxes and red tape in their home countries, it's almost poetic. Even Airbus is now headquartered in Leiden, Nether…

Why would you want to pay more taxes and become uncompetitive if you can avoid it?

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#125

Post by zrail »

ekianjo wrote: post #116
phpisthebest wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it odd that companies always want to be build things outside of their home state TSMC -> US Intel -> EU Toyota -> US Honda -> US Ford -> MX / Canada GM -> MX / Canada

> Toyota -> US you dont pay tariffs if you produce locally. not hard to understand.

Toyota builds trucks in the US because of the chicken tax.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#126

Post by vetinari »

mschuster91 wrote: post #80
vetinari wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (thus funding their war of aggression) I see this repeated as a matra, in a way of Carthago delenda est. But it is not true. Said warmongering dictators do not need dollars or euros to wage any war. The entire chain of the war machine is in local currency, backed by local resources. They do not need anything there, that has to be bought for dollars or euros. They are not some third would countries that have to buy…

> The entire chain of the war machine is in local currency, backed by local resources. Not really. There are already signs that the Russian military industry is in hot water now because there are no Russian semiconductor fabs that can supply the type of chips needed for anything beyond dumb ballistic missiles [1]. And it's not just chips, but also other basic electronic components or modules whose manufacturing has l…

Western reports have to be taken with grain of salt; it was demonstrated that western journalists know exactly zero about the war and what you read is more wishful thinking than news. For example, there were reports of Russia running out of gas in march, and out of ammo in april, and our (I'm EU citizen, that's why "our") Ursula was talking about cannibalizing chips from wash machines. And yet, here we are, this all turned out to be nonsense.

Same goes for "iranian" drones. Iran would have no idea how to start integrating them with russian C4ISR (note how the "mopeds" are observed by lancet drones); non-integrated drones would be OK for tactical, but not operational level of war-waging.

Russia is closest thing to autarchy that you can find on this planet (US isn't even a player here, US deindustrialized itself in the name of cost cutting). The 2014 sanctions only helped in building such economy. Medicine is easy to clone, if you are not bothered with intellectual property (see also India) and they are net food exporter. Sure, some french cheese or wines could be missing, but they are not necessary for the war.

But back to our topic: none of this means that buying energy is financing the war. It is there for conditioning western population to get used to more expensive energy (basic economic theory: the supply was cut, demand was preserved, the equilibrium moves). The oligarchs are going be laughing all the way to the bank. It is just surprising that someone with intelligence to be discussing on HN would be taking part of such conditioning, without realizing it.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#127

Post by justahuman74 »

huijzer wrote: post #90
squarefoot wrote: post #24

Hopefully we'll do something like that here in the EU too. We're experiencing the hard way how's like depending on the energy and resources of warmongering criminal dictators; it would be wise to start moving away from technological dependence on China asap.

Actually, Europe is doing pretty good due to having a monopoly on making chip making machines via ASML in the Netherlands which relies heavily on Carl Zeiss in Germany. Fun fact by the way, at some point Japan and Europe were very close in state-of-the-art semiconductor manufacturing while the US didn’t have the capabilities anymore because it was outcompeted by Japan. At that point, the US donated funds and 20 years…

> Europe is doing pretty good

For this industry, you want as many verticals as you can to ensure supply. Have the early parts of the chain is great, but producing the end product is necessary too.

You also see this problem the other way around, when a US company produces a chip design, but then actually gets it fabricated, packaged, integrated into a product, boxed, all in another country

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#128

Post by galangalalgol »

LegitShady wrote: post #109
mschuster91 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire chain of the war machine is in local currency, backed by local resources. Not really. There are already signs that the Russian military industry is in hot water now because there are no Russian semiconductor fabs that can supply the type of chips needed for anything beyond dumb ballistic missiles [1]. And it's not just chips, but also other basic electronic components or modules whose manufacturing has l…

the CPP will provide them whatever they need in exchange for influence and power

Darn you Bjarne!

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#129

Post by ekianjo »

neonihil wrote: post #70
AdamN wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a valid long term concern for Taiwan but 10+ years out.

I'm afraid there could be a hidden math behind this. As in: cost of a war with China vs. economic cost of China acquiring TSMC tech. As long as a war is cheaper, the US is protecting Taiwan. I'm no expert, but it usually comes down to something like this.

Since when does the US government care about costs exactly?

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#130

Post by justahuman74 »

float4 wrote: post #122
spaniard89277 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but local fabs in Europe are far, far away from Intel, TSMC and Samsung. Infineon, NXP and STM are wayy behind.

Why do we even want cutting edge fabs in Europe? We have no companies that design cutting edge logic chips here. Literally none. Why invest 20 billion dollars (or what is the price of a cutting edge fab these days?) to create supply without demand? Or do we seriously expect that US companies will generate significant demand even though TSMC and Samsung are already building heavily subsidized fabs in the US ?

> Or do we seriously expect that US companies will generate significant demand

Yes I think so, presuming that there is not an over-supply of capacity.

US companies would much rather rely on an EU country than one that is being threatened with invasion over a small gap of sea. US local supply will never be enough.

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