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The best Go framework: no framework?

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Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#151

Post by John23832 »

Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

This is an insane take lol.

If you don't like GRPC and Proto, use REST. `http.Client{}`, boom make a call.

Go is built for microsevices. It probably has the best std library for web services of any language.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#152

Post by bobertlo »

hsn915 wrote: post #58
davidkell wrote: post #10

For junior developers reading this: frameworks are great, learn to love them, they will save you much time and stress when shipping real products.

For junior developers reading this: don't listen to the above; it's bad advice. I mean, unless you want to remain a junior forever.

For junior developers reading this: if you are asked to use a framework and decide to write it from scratch instead, you may not even remain a junior.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#153

Post by fyzix »

Thaxll wrote: post #41
Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

You're saying that grpc and protobuf are over engineered but you're happy with Spring? gRPC and protobuf are just transport and serialization, they have nothing to do with business logic, on the other hand Spring is a heavy, bloated framework. Most Java frameworks are complicated backed by layers of abstraction and black magic. btw no framework does not mean you don't use any library, there are some good lib aka micr…

I use chi for one of my projects and though it was fun implementing everything myself. Having a framework would greatly reduce the length of my handler functions and the chance that I mess something up.

I had to: manually manage sessions and jwt token Implement message flashing

Even reading data from a form was a little too verbose for my liking

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#154

Post by robswc »

esparrohack wrote: post #131
robswc wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of an debate I was having with another dev who said python was "pointless" and that there was a better, more elegant way to do things. I asked him what is a better way to quickly/easily stand up microservices/apps for clients (90% of my job), if not Django (or Flask/FastAPI, etc). His response was "django is great, but it could have been written better and in another language" ... well, sure, great...…

Yeah, it’s a smart guy with a bad idea. Story of all of us in HN! There’s always a better way to do things but we live in a fallen world. Some bullshit will always arise to make your life more complicated. It’s like you said, when you hit whatever limitation, you’ll have to figure out a way around it.

Yep! I just thought it was mostly funny how a "better solution" is claimed and then after looking at the problem that solution only exists in theory, lol.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#155

Post by metaltyphoon »

GiorgioG wrote: post #39
osigurdson wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of times that the asp.net "startup" has changed is completely ridiculous. It all started from a very bad place with a startup class that is stupidly called by reflection, forcing the developer to use trial and error to discover what methods should be used. Thankfully, they have finally done away with this but it is sad that they ever allowed these horrible patterns in the first place. Another abysmal area…

Everyone makes mistakes, even framework/compiler teams. I mean look at how long it took Go to get generics. Huge mistake IMO. I still dislike what ASP.NET did with their startup, and I don't think it's improved much. The minimal startup is just a bunch of magic (where did the var 'args' come from? Just magic.) Framework folks are people, they try new things, it doesn't always stick.

That feels a lot of ‘old man telling skies’.

What is main(), where did it come from? Who calls it? What is argc and argv? Who puts that stuff there.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#156

Post by metaltyphoon »

bobertlo wrote: post #152
hsn915 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For junior developers reading this: don't listen to the above; it's bad advice. I mean, unless you want to remain a junior forever.

For junior developers reading this: if you are asked to use a framework and decide to write it from scratch instead, you may not even remain a junior.

This ^^. You will be out of a job.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#158

Post by rattlesnakedave »

eddsh1994 wrote: post #114
rattlesnakedave wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop I didn't need to read the rest of the comment after this.

He could have been working at Netflix, Facebook, or Amazon?

Very little to do with the fact that it's a Java developer. More someone identifying as "x language developer working at y language shop." Most of the time, including this one, it shows that they see x language as a part of their identity. Hard to have objective conversations if that is the case.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#159

Post by cduzz »

jimbokun wrote: post #119
cduzz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's contradicting the parent post. A framework is an added friction to picking up a development environment but potentially a huge asset to velocity once people are up to speed. You haven't gotten properly up to speed in that framework and that site's use of the framework. Perhaps you never spend enough time in that domain to really need to pick it up, in which case you'll always pay the "WTF is this?…

> You haven't gotten properly up to speed in that framework and that site's use of the framework. I've been working in Spring framework for years, and don't understand it. I suspect most of the people who develop it don't understand it either, as it's so enormous it's probably impossible for any one human being to really understand it.

I'm not trying to defend this or that development environment or framework, just pointing out that there are trade-offs everywhere.

I don't understand speculative execution or any of the other deep voodoo that happens in modern CPUs that spend enormous amounts of energy presenting the "I'm a PDP-11/70 with way more memory and bigger registers" lie to programmers.

These days I'm not even sure which part of my computer is running the networking stack, or where my computer is located.

We stand on towers of abstractions, and complain about the ones we're forced to notice. I don't think many people understand "it" these days.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#160

Post by SergeAx »

> Python has Django and Flask, Ruby has Rails, C# has ASP.NET, Node has Express, and PHP has Symfony and Laravel. Go is different: there is no default framework.

And this is the root of most problems described by author. If I start project on Python - I know that I can take Django and use it for at least 4 next years, spending one sprint a year tops to migrate to next LTS version. In Go only standard library currently gives me that kind of reliability.

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