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The best Go framework: no framework?

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Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#111

Post by cnity »

jcelerier wrote: post #95
cnity wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By far my least favourite thing about the Java web ecosystem is how weirdly obscured the bootstrapping process for starting processes is. So much of how your application starts is determined by XML files and DI frameworks that I often have no idea (or am sometimes not even exposed to) where the `main` function is.

Caring about the main function in a framework-ey app generally makes as much sense as caring about the x86 initial boot code when launching mspaint.exe

Not for newcomers to the codebase. Approaching an application that is forced to make the entire application clear as day (as in Go) is so much easier than such Java codebases because I can just read the code and see what it does. This is just my experience though. The Java codebases are always fine as long as I have read several pages of documentation first, which I've learned to do for those cases.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#112

Post by chakkepolja »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #104
pkphilip wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spring Boot is actually a VERY easy to use framework. So much so that Netflix shifted out of writing their own libraries to using Spring boot. For example, the code below is a complete Spring Boot application with all of the default configuration in place. It will take just a couple of minutes to have this running and it provides quite a lot of features under the hood - which you don't need to worry about. @SpringBoo…

I write Spring full time these days. You may have Stockholm at this point (like me), but Spring is terrible in two areas: - when things go wrong - onboarding newer / more junior devs For point 1, there are so many layers of abstraction and 20 page stack traces that you could fill an entire log buffer with just one NPE... Kidding aside, I can't tell you how many times I've wrestled with the auto-configure magic. The r…

is there a go-to third-party documentation for spring (eg a book) you would recommend? I find official docs difficult to navigate. (which are either very narrow tutorial or in reference format, with important details omitted).

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#113

Post by jimbokun »

asim wrote: post #32
Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

This 100%. I think the people largely arguing for no frameworks have no idea what real productivity looks like at large scale engineering orgs. This mostly means you are not handcrafting libraries. There is a dedicated team who manages platform tooling including the frameworks/SDKs you use. Product teams may contribute to that but they will mostly be consumers. I always equate this to car manufacturing. I am not buyi…

> There is a dedicated team who manages platform tooling including the frameworks/SDKs you use.

Ah, so an organization so bloated that you have entire teams "managing platform tooling" (whatever that means) instead of iterating on features customers actually care about.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#114

Post by eddsh1994 »

rattlesnakedave wrote: post #80
Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

> a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop I didn't need to read the rest of the comment after this.

He could have been working at Netflix, Facebook, or Amazon?

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#115

Post by alexjplant »

dimitrios1 wrote: post #104
pkphilip wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spring Boot is actually a VERY easy to use framework. So much so that Netflix shifted out of writing their own libraries to using Spring boot. For example, the code below is a complete Spring Boot application with all of the default configuration in place. It will take just a couple of minutes to have this running and it provides quite a lot of features under the hood - which you don't need to worry about. @SpringBoo…

I write Spring full time these days. You may have Stockholm at this point (like me), but Spring is terrible in two areas: - when things go wrong - onboarding newer / more junior devs For point 1, there are so many layers of abstraction and 20 page stack traces that you could fill an entire log buffer with just one NPE... Kidding aside, I can't tell you how many times I've wrestled with the auto-configure magic. The r…

> Kidding aside, I can't tell you how many times I've wrestled with the auto-configure magic.

Because everything in Go is explicit you can actually follow a short series of function calls when debugging instead of staring at a 50-function stack trace with a bunch of obscure Aspect4J magic while you feverishly search the Spring JavaDocs for whatever specific error message you're getting.

Go is a dumb language and I like it. Everything's obvious and you can't get too cute. Now that there are generics the only thing that I'm really jonesing for is a decent collections framework in the standard library... generic map, filter, fold, etc. on slices would be a real boon to productivity IMHO.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#116

Post by nindalf »

Thaxll wrote: post #41
Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

You're saying that grpc and protobuf are over engineered but you're happy with Spring? gRPC and protobuf are just transport and serialization, they have nothing to do with business logic, on the other hand Spring is a heavy, bloated framework. Most Java frameworks are complicated backed by layers of abstraction and black magic. btw no framework does not mean you don't use any library, there are some good lib aka micr…

GP is extrapolating from their experience and assumes that everyone would feel the same way.

“I’m less productive in Go compared to Java Spring” => “the whole world is less productive in Go compared to Java Spring”.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#117

Post by robswc »

esparrohack wrote: post #110
berkes wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> btw no framework does not mean you don't use any library I hear that silly argument "no framework === rewrite everything from scratch" far too often. There's a giant difference between libraries and frameworks! It's terminology: it's a framework if you build your app inside it. It's a library if you build it inside your app. The later is fine. The former: I dislike it - even in JavaScript, Ruby, Rust or anything, I…

That’s because your premise is weak. You argue that Django is the wrong choice for lots of projects but the counter factual is that our job is to figure that out. We have to choose the lesser evil. It’s not convincing to just call everyone stupid. Everything is a trade off. You have no idea what those could be in any particular situation so that’s why your whole argument falls apart Then you focus on construction and…

This reminds me of an debate I was having with another dev who said python was "pointless" and that there was a better, more elegant way to do things.

I asked him what is a better way to quickly/easily stand up microservices/apps for clients (90% of my job), if not Django (or Flask/FastAPI, etc).

His response was "django is great, but it could have been written better and in another language" ... well, sure, great... but that doesn't solve my problem, lol.

We use Django for tons of client projects and rarely ever hit the "limitations" wall. It is mostly CRUD apps, so that helps but I would argue the time saved using frameworks in our shop is much more than the time lost spent on working around limitations. I do think the author has good ideas tho, good principals... but if you know your craft well, you know what will/won't work in a framework and how to solve that.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#118

Post by Tainnor »

pkphilip wrote: post #93
Thaxll wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that grpc and protobuf are over engineered but you're happy with Spring? gRPC and protobuf are just transport and serialization, they have nothing to do with business logic, on the other hand Spring is a heavy, bloated framework. Most Java frameworks are complicated backed by layers of abstraction and black magic. btw no framework does not mean you don't use any library, there are some good lib aka micr…

Spring Boot is actually a VERY easy to use framework. So much so that Netflix shifted out of writing their own libraries to using Spring boot. For example, the code below is a complete Spring Boot application with all of the default configuration in place. It will take just a couple of minutes to have this running and it provides quite a lot of features under the hood - which you don't need to worry about. @SpringBoo…

> For example, the code below is a complete Spring Boot application with all of the default configuration in place.

Uh no, you forget the part where you have to add a bunch of stuff to your build system (maven or gradle, usually), so it actually knows what to do with this.

You can't just compile that class with java -c, run it, and have a running application the way you could do it with lighter-weight frameworks.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#119

Post by jimbokun »

cduzz wrote: post #53
molodec wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to switch between Java Spring boot, Go and Rust. The latter two are framework less and easy to understand just by reading the code. Spring-boot development requires so much googling to figure out why I get UnsatisfiedDependencyException and what each annotation means. Even if I get it to work I still don't understand how it works.

I'm not sure that's contradicting the parent post. A framework is an added friction to picking up a development environment but potentially a huge asset to velocity once people are up to speed. You haven't gotten properly up to speed in that framework and that site's use of the framework. Perhaps you never spend enough time in that domain to really need to pick it up, in which case you'll always pay the "WTF is this?…

> You haven't gotten properly up to speed in that framework and that site's use of the framework.

I've been working in Spring framework for years, and don't understand it. I suspect most of the people who develop it don't understand it either, as it's so enormous it's probably impossible for any one human being to really understand it.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#120

Post by kaba0 »

cnity wrote: post #69
liampulles wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different strokes I guess. I've previously worked at big orgs. with Spring, now working with Go microservices and enjoying it by and large. I don't miss the days where I had to deal with random missing or conflicting beans stopping my app from starting. The nice things about a Go app is because the control flow is so exposed, if it compiles you can be pretty sure it is going to run, and if it doesn't compile you can…

By far my least favourite thing about the Java web ecosystem is how weirdly obscured the bootstrapping process for starting processes is. So much of how your application starts is determined by XML files and DI frameworks that I often have no idea (or am sometimes not even exposed to) where the `main` function is.

I’m only assuming, but I guess your last experience with Java is a bit dated, XML configurations have been largely replaced.

And then what we are left with is a huge, old project vs some new microservice, which would be an unfair comparison in any language

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