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Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

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Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. The benefit of officer risking his life is that he/she a literal stake in making a decision. It is not supposed to be an easy job. The moment that officer is plopped down behind a screen, the situation immediately becomes less real. He does not have stakes in the situation, which has benefits ( less officers killed ) and serious drawbacks ( population is policed by unaccountable robots, which does wonders for…

With very few exceptions, anybody in a life threatening (or what they perceive to be a life threatening) situation is going to pick themselves over a person that they don't know and believe is trying to kill them. It is exceedingly hard to train this out of people and the only way to know whether or not you successfully have is to observe them in actual gunfights. I would even go as far to say that the trait is proba…

I absolutely accept that life or death situations have an immediate and huge impact on anyone ( edit: maybe with exceptions of true psychopaths, but how rare those are is hard to accurately estimate it seems ). There is zero argument about that. However, my argument is not that it does not have an impact. My argument is that their life being threatened and them having to make a decision that happens to involve them physically is better for a society as a whole in an abstract than a remotely controlled AR-15 on wheels, because this is where the this argument is logically headed. My argument is: pick your poison. I am saying: send a human in.

Because, and here is the kicker, the moment cops start using those, you can rest assured it will not stay in those hands exclusively as people adapt to new normal ( edit: I do not want to spell those out on a public forum for fear of giving people ideas, but I am sure you can think of some ways this arms race could escalate further ). Unless this is the goal ( further destabilization of society ), in which case that is a really good approach.

Maybe some clarification is needed on my point. The moment an officer is walking on the street, their skin is in the game literally and figuratively. It is their job to be visible arm of the law and confirm to the general population that the rules are, in fact, being enforced. If they are not considering what they are doing, maybe this is not a career for them.

I am willing to agree and it goes back to my previous point. It is not a job for everyone.

Note. I am saying all this with cops in my extended family. I do not want them to die. I do not want expansion of police state either. Some balance is required. That balance is not achieved with gun toting robots - whether they are remote controlled or not.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#222
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree police should get more training. You will have to fund them more if you want that.

> I agree police should get more training. > You will have to fund them more if you want that. I think nowhere else on Hacker News would the idea that "you're doing so badly at this job that we ought to pay you more to motivate you to do it well" get serious traction.

I didn't say give them a raise. I said fund them.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Train citizens to drive robot surveillance drones, do paperwork Aka hire more cops. A cop in the US is just a citizen with 3-6 months of tactical and paperwork training.

What I am trying to describe is a very different kind of organization of policing agency and your response is to repeat old semantics, and conclude then it’s not that new?

You posted five sentences. Three of them are mostly just vague conglomerations of charged symbology. Did you expect an entire treatise in response...?

Anyways, the point remains: the difference between a police officer and a civilian is a small amount of training and a whole lot of in-group politics. Not sure how hiring different people solves either problem.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> asking them to perform duties on behalf of the citizens they are supposed to protect. SCOTUS has ruled that police have no duty to protect citizens. "Protect and serve" is just a marketing slogan, just like "Don't be evil".

> SCOTUS has ruled that police have no duty to protect citizens. That is not remotely true. What SCOTUS has ruled is that police have no constitutional duty to protect citizens, i.e. the Constitution doesn't say anything about it one way or another. The actual duty of police to protect citizens arises from state law, departmental policies, and/or employment contracts. If you are so unfortunate as to live in a municip…

> The actual duty of police to protect citizens arises from state law...

No, SCOTUS explicitly ruled otherwise. Colorado law said the cops had a duty to act in a certain scenario; SCOTUS said Colorado can't override police discretion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-po...

"Although the protective order did mandate an arrest, or an arrest warrant, in so many words, Justice Scalia said, 'a well-established tradition of police discretion has long coexisted with apparently mandatory arrest statutes.'"

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#225
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's remote controlled then there isn't even a self defense justification to shoot. And I've never liked the notion of police shooting someone for threatening another person. The classic example being domestic disputes where they don't know who the aggressor is. A great example last year was that girl being attacked, called 911, but by the time the police arrived, she got the weapon and was threatening her attacke…

> she got the weapon and was threatening her attacker Are you talking about Ma'Khia Bryant?[1] Because in that case both parties grabbed knives, but Bonner was unarmed by the time the police arrived. Also it doesn't matter what happened beforehand. Bryant was about to stab a woman to death who was not a threat. She shouted, "I'm gonna stab the fuck out of you, bitch.", lunged toward Bonner, and ignored police command…

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