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Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

missionlocal.org

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Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#151

Post by butlerm »

chimeracoder wrote: post #110
JadeNB wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asking a cop to walk into an active shooter situation isn’t great either. Indeed, cops are just humans, and we correctly think of them as such when asking them to perform duties on behalf of the citizens they are supposed to protect. But somehow, when it comes time to holding them accountable for misdeeds carried out in the course of their professional duties, they are held apart from other humans. At least one sid…

> asking them to perform duties on behalf of the citizens they are supposed to protect. SCOTUS has ruled that police have no duty to protect citizens. "Protect and serve" is just a marketing slogan, just like "Don't be evil".

> SCOTUS has ruled that police have no duty to protect citizens.

That is not remotely true. What SCOTUS has ruled is that police have no constitutional duty to protect citizens, i.e. the Constitution doesn't say anything about it one way or another. The actual duty of police to protect citizens arises from state law, departmental policies, and/or employment contracts. If you are so unfortunate as to live in a municipality that imposes no duties on their employees, perhaps you should vote for someone who will.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#152

Post by woodruffw »

chrisseaton wrote: post #132
woodruffw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chief concern that I can think of with a remote-controlled weapon is that it derealizes the person on the other end of the barrel, and derealizes the operation of the weapon. It's easier to kill someone when the action is disconnected from the physics. Compare, for example, the US using video game controllers to pilot drones in Afghanistan. One wonders how many botched drone missions wouldn't have been performed…

> One wonders how many botched drone missions wouldn't have been performed in the first place had the operators been physically present in the areas they were attacking. They wouldn’t be any more connected to the people if they were in a secure US camp in country, I think.

> They wouldn’t be any more connected to the people if they were in a secure US camp in country, I think.

I meant in the field, but I take your point -- drones generally have this "problem" (arguably a strength in the military's eyes).

Maybe the better comparison is any degree of drone strikes, versus having to send a bunch of troops into a town.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#155

Post by mushbino »

Alupis wrote: post #53

Folks - this is not a lethal autonomous robot. This is a remotely controlled bomb disposal robot retrofitted with a gun. A human still has to pull the (digital) trigger to use lethal force. This is nothing but a good thing. Nobody cares if a robot is destroyed. A robot will allow everyone time to think and assess the situation before making a snap-judgement we all question later on. This can do nothing but reduce let…

Police can't control their own actions responsibly, what makes you think a robot would be any better? Seems like it would be worse.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#156

Post by zbrozek »

woodruffw wrote: post #83
vorpalhex wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree police should get more training. You will have to fund them more if you want that.

At least where I live, giving the police more funding hasn't meaningfully improved their ability to comport themselves. If anything, it's markedly declined over the last 30 years (while their funding hasn't). I think an easier way to make the police more careful with their guns is to limit which cops can carry guns, and to require cops to live in the neighborhoods they police. People tend to be a little more careful…

That could be difficult in places with $8M homes.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#157

Post by dang »

calibas wrote: post #62

localtoday.news copied the article from here: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/san-francisco-police-seek-pe... Which copied the article from here: https://www.engadget.com/san-francisco-police-seek-permissio... Which is a rewrite of the original article here: https://missionlocal.org/2022/11/killer-robots-to-be-permitt...

Right. We've changed to that from https://localtoday.news/ca/the-san-francisco-police-departme... and banned the latter site.

Thanks!

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#158

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

neoromantique wrote: post #95
petilon wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One word --> Uvalde. A remote-controlled robot equipped with a gun is needed in this type of situation. The gun will be operated by a human, remotely.

Or you know, Police Officers inside, doing their jobs. But arresting parents was indeed higher priority.

So police officers should just carry out their duty and charge with reckless abandon toward the business end of an AR-15 like automatons? Wait...

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#159

Post by falcolas »

Alupis wrote: post #150
falcolas wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you believe officers use excessive lethal force, then removing their lives from the equation can only make it better. Or, they feel free to use the “Easy Button” to end situations faster, precisely since there is no risk to them to do so.

I doubt that will be the case. A lone officer shooting someone while covering their camera is far easier than hauling out this huge machine and deploying it. It literally requires only one person to make that decision all on their own. I also don't think it's lost on anyone how the public would react if these RC robots started to stack a body count... The risks seem to be extremely minimal. Accountability can be buil…

> I also don't think it's lost on anyone how the public would react if these RC robots started to stack a body count...

Police have already demonstrated publicly that they don’t care about the public reaction to them killing people in their custody. I cant see how their use of robots would change that.

> This is all good stuff to have in the vein of reducing lethal force use.

And I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree. I do not see how reducing the risk of using lethal force will lead to the reduction of the use of lethal force as a whole.

Re: Draft policy proposal would authorize SF Police to use deadly force with robots

#160

Post by woodruffw »

zbrozek wrote: post #156
woodruffw wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least where I live, giving the police more funding hasn't meaningfully improved their ability to comport themselves. If anything, it's markedly declined over the last 30 years (while their funding hasn't). I think an easier way to make the police more careful with their guns is to limit which cops can carry guns, and to require cops to live in the neighborhoods they police. People tend to be a little more careful…

That could be difficult in places with $8M homes.

It occurs to this reader that that's symptomatic of the problem!
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